This is NOT going Well… Linux Gaming Challenge Pt.2
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Luke and Linus continue their challenge to use Linux on their home PCs. Today's challenge? Game streaming, complete with team comms and a camera setup.
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CHAPTERS
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0:00 Intro
1:05 Today's Challenge
1:40 Linus' tries OBS
3:44 Luke tries OBS
4:10 Issues with Software that Doesn't Exist
7:45 Luke's Audio Issues
8:50 Linus' Discord Journey
10:15 Luke's Random Issues
11:37 Linus Camera
11:59 Luke's Overall Thoughts
12:55 Linus' Overall Thoughts
14:25 Outro
Got a really good pointer on how to get Logitech battery monitoring working! Much love. Thanks MissingClara twitter.com/MissingClara/status/1463290819885031424?s=19
I would appreciate if you showed us some alternatives for peripherals like the goxlr and mouses and keyboards that work better on linux or pc hardware that works out of the box with linux. Or why not do a linux specific pc build? Anyway i love this series. ❤️ You made the linux penguin very happy 🐧❤️🙂
Canary release is basically a pre-release or beta release.
I wonder how hard Anthony laughs as he watches this whole series
protest the KZhead Dislike button removal by having a pinned comment "Like to Dislike", not that your videos need it
So challenge failed... If you need Windows to configure your peripherals and such then Linux is not a viable replacement.
Linus consciously chose that font on his desktop. Let that fact sink in for a moment.
I consciously chose indie flower as my font, which is even worse lol
Yeah he fuckin did
he consciously decided to make everything italic too
not to mention that huge aliasing on it, because it's italic and nonbold
I could be wrong, but it seems to be a font for dyslexia. Not that uncommon actually.
"We don't know what fixed it, but that's cool, I guess" - My IT career in a nutshell
As a programmer, I also relate to that phrase. "you've been trying to fix this bug for hours now, and in the end it fixed itself. You have NO IDEA what fixed it, but you couldn't care less"
I'm guessing it might be OBS getting updated to work on Wayland
This hurts when you're a tech trying to fix a laptop...
@@jjpark98 You forgot: When it solved itself, another Bug Comes Up...
These situations drive me absolutely mad because I *need* to know caused it but half the time I'm too exhausted by this point to care.
"magically fixed itself and we don't know why or how" seems to be a constant theme with this episode
some red-eyed dude hacks into Linus's computer and "magically" fixes everything
my code be like
Magic seems to be common in Linux. It happened a plenty while I was using it (I want to get back to it, but I got a Win10 license with my current PC and I don't want to switch until the end of support for Win10) and I know I am not the only one, askubuntu is full of "nvm, it fixed itself" posts. Well, all that matters is that it works.
@@UltimatePerfection Happens sometimes on Windows too, probably some process needing to be restarted or possibly something to do with the order in which processes start. From my understanding of it Linux was originally built using a lot of piping since it allowed them to save memory (a small program would be loaded up and run through/manipulate data in a dataset then that program would be unloaded and another program would be loaded to do something else to the dataset and so on and so forth until the desired result was reached). I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of core code in Linux still uses a lot of pipelines which might (and I'm somewhat guessing here) get messed up if part of the pipeline is restarted while the others are not.
"hey yall, I did some mining off camera"
6:10 "But I'm frustrated by the condescending tone" That's stack overflow for you bro. They don't want newbies to exist
As someone who uses Linux as their daily driver and for gaming, I wanna say that I appreciate the impact your videos have had. Your two Linux videos have created a spark in the community to fix many issues that help with user friendliness (including a patch that was applied to apt as a direct result of your issues in the first video). Many of them have been relatively minor changes that simply never got changed because there never was a need. A Windows transplant was expected to essentially rice their setup and solve issues on their own and through questions, not have things just work out of the box. Although a bit controversial in the community, the videos have created important discussion and seem to be making a positive difference overall, so I thank you for continuing to give it a shot. I'm sorry it's been so problematic, but I hope you'll be able to smooth out all of your issues soon!
Hi do you have any links to such discussions? I would be interested to read them firsthand. Thanks
As much as I love and use Linux myself, it is far from being a easy recommendation. It is definitely a niche. Although It don't like when things don't work out of the box, I enjoy troubleshooting it. But we are definitely a minority. Linux has come a long way and perhaps in the future it will take over the personal computer market. That would be awesome
@ExplosiveMonkey Basically, it doesn't let you indirectly uninstall system-breaking packages with the "Yes, do as I say!" prompt anymore alla what happened to Linus in the first vid. It was originally just in the Pop_OS! version of apt, but I believe it's now going into the main apt source.
Linux will never have the ux it needs for mainstream appeal. I've used it for more than two decades and can say that with absolute confidence. Cli first hurts Linux a lot
@@mattymattffs Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't people used to say that Linux was never going to be good to play games?
I think this is my favorite series on LTT in, well, forever. Would also like an 'Anthony Reacts' follow-up at some point.
This challenge wouldn't phase you, since you recompile Linux daily.
Hi Jeff 😁
It's always wild to see people you follow as commenters on youtube.
I just like to see him squirm even with simple tasks such as downloading files off github, which even provides a convenient "download as a zip" button. I'll gloss over the whole right click / save / open / copy paste / run nonsense, which is an indication of larger issues, completely unrelated to his legitimate Linux issues.
@@bufordmaddogtannen Hey Jeff. I wonder which is the favorite series of red shirt Jeff 🤔
As a developer this is hilarious. Many things we do in Linux, we forget aren’t trivial.
Exactly. Doing the most simple task on terminal looks like hacking to someone who isnt familiar
@@user-gj6nq1nn1u the funniest part is how he struggled to run the bash script. The idea of giving it executable properties to use the shebang. He could’ve use the bash interpreter and done it easier haha
then it didn't work because he didn't have the rest of the files to go with it, which were probably important
yes i cringed so hard on the github part
ikr. the proper way to do it is git clone it then run the script.
Man, I really miss seeing Luke in normal LTT videos. His cadence is so calming
Yep. Luke was, and still is, a very balancing force to Linus. The two of them work so well together it's insane. I get WHY Luke transitioned to FloatPlane, but it was definitely a loss to the that side of the business, IMO.
I agree, his voice is like a soft carpet!
When done, I'd like to see a version with Anthony, starting from scratch. I'd like to see the difference.
Yeah, there's a lot of knowledge about how to do things (and how to fix things) that a seasoned Linux user would be able to draw upon that someone new to Linux would not have. Then there's the issue of SEO where outdated or inaccurate information is returned by search engines, and in some cases this can be disastrous (e.g. fixing btrfs issues).
They can do a version with Linus Torvards himself but it doesn't change the fact that Linux softwares are generally not officially supported and inferior.
@@joo9125 it's just interesting to see the difference.
@@joo9125 True for end user applications. From a system admin or development point of view, *nix is, in my experience, a lot less frustrating.
@@zoqaeski tbh sort of - I will grant that i haven't really tried Linux on the cutting edge hardware that Linus and co. are running on, but... I was a Windows guy with a good year or two of solid Mac experience when I threw myself at Linux on my work computer and... my experience has been entirely different, and wonderful, to the point that I'm ready to ditch Windows for everything BUT gaming, and maybe even that. It didn't shock me, for example, that Linus seemed to have more trouble than Luke with a lot of stuff, given that Luke chose a relatively mainstream Linux distribution with some decent institutional money behind it, while Linus chose a more obscure distro.
"the control panel looks like it's from 10 years ago." You'd think so! But it's actually looked like that for the 13 past years I've been using it! So it's even older!
it works and no reason to change it
True!
The regular nvidia control panel on Windows has looked the same for ages too, and it looks similar to the one used on Linux.
It looked like that in 2001 as well from my fading memory skills.
@@ArrowGent No reason to improve... That explains a lot of things.
I like how things randomly fixing themselves is an ongoing thing with these two, and as a linux user, I can say that this is absolutely my experience as well.
That's my windows experience. With linux, as long as I don't install anything nothing changes. but then you run a package upgrade and you're not mindful enough about the updates and one of the tweaks your environment relies on gets removed or causes a conflict and the whole thing shits the bed.
@@MGosling94 The opposite also happens on windows: stuff works, but then you reboot...
Happens on MacOS too.
Computer be like that. Nice that although things have a tendency to randomly break, they also have a tendency to randomly fix themselves, I've had those that on both linux and windows.
Same but I know it was me who made the change. In wine, I chose an output device for sound as well as added windows XP compatibility mode for Diablo 1 Belzebub HD mod, and this made the sound work finally, but it "takes control" of the sound card and other package sounds won't work when Diablo is running (wine)
Just as a note, any version of software that's labelled "Canary" can usually be thought of as an unstable beta release. It's using canary in the coalmine imagery to indicate that. It's not obvious, and one of the many products of Linux naming culture heavily influenced by decades of engineer dominant input.
i knew that was its meaning, but i didnt know that's where it came from
very late but that's not a linux thing, discord has a canary version on windows too
@@hecko-yes re-read
@@alfonzom6 he doesn't have too. He's right
chrome canary, basically the alpha before chrome dev and chrome beta
As a long time Linux user, it's really nice to see it be used from such a new-user perspective. Every thing they encountered I have too at some point, I just don't notice anymore. Really need to watch out how much I try to sell Linux to people. Awesome video!
Yup, I've learned its best to recommend Linux to the two extreme ends of the spectrum: People that don't require much more than a web browser at one end, and highly technical people that enjoy understanding the inner workings of their OS on the other. Basically, Nan and Pop will benefit from the increased security and stability without even noticing its not Windows, while your engineer buddy probably doesn't mind messing about for 2 hours to get an obscure piece of software working. It's the people in the middle that have the most trouble with it. Or technical people that have very specific peices of software or hardware they need to run, specifically for professional work.
One thing I think Linux users should stop claiming all the time is that "Linux is more stable than Windows". Maybe this is true for servers, but I very very rarely have to restart on Windows 10. On Linux, only 4 or 5 times I have experienced a locked system since June, 1 required a hard reset, 2 times it simply refused to shutdown (after KDE had already ended), and 2 times I had a random spike in RAM of more than 10GB. Not to mention the times I have to restart an application or the entire PC to get something like Bluetooth or ethernet working. At the end of the day, I think it's still worth it. All the customizations, lightweight options, and usability improvements (you can force dark mode on apps that don't support it) justified the switch for me, not to mention FOSS. For one's grandma, I'd recommend Linux. Linus got in trouble because of all his fancy hardware that requires drivers.
@@srpenguinbr Windows have come a long way in stability since people said that .. Linux desktop can be stable, but if your running bleeding edge/new stuff, its not, just like a Windows beta wouldn't be ..
@@Pytte the instability in Linux and windows occurs during updates and changes to the system. The difference is that in Linux, these are user controlled, whereas in windows, it is OS and Microsoft controlled. I think the main problem they have is that installing and getting everything set up IS more complicated, but once that's done, you're golden.
the last time someone ask me if I recommend Linux I responded "do you want to waste time fixing things?" he responded "no". so my recomendation was not to migrate to Linux, I'm used to fix shit on Linux, and know where I don't have to touch (modify files on some folders or install desktop enviroments because I'm not a Linux power user) and I learned that by breaking my system. and I get that a lot of people don't want to invest the time fixing shit just because "Microsoft bad" or "Linux is free", I think average people don't think that the windows "cons" are enough to learn a full new os
I love how Luke can literally buy any matching monitor set he wants but still keeps it real with mixed model triple monitor setup.
because luke is cheap hes admitted it many times
Luke is still cheap. He talks about his methodology on wan show all the time- if he doesn’t need it, or it won’t be a serious quality of life improvement to what he already uses daily. He’s honesty probably my favorite person with ltt
He is a frugal person. I'm the same way despite making well above my means. Some save for retirement others it's the way they were raised or both. I was raised in a very poor household so its just the way I have always lived. I use that saved money for retirement and my family after I pass.
@@CoffeeKadachi Any specific Wan shows where he talks about that? O:
@@Desslosh they don't often specifically talk about it. It's usually brought up as jokes but in the steam deck wan show he mentions hes already preordered it and linus makes a joke about it
I really like this critical take on linux for end users. I personally use linux as my daily driver for almost everything, and saying the switch from windows to linux was painless would be a lie. there are speedbumps with linux, no matter what way you slice it. be it ubuntu or arch there is still setup involved that wouldn't be required normally with windows. Edit: Thanks for the likes. Glad I could bring up some conversation
Thank you for the truth
Just made the switch yesterday on my laptop (but kept my stationary Windows), and yeah it's confusing. I think the biggest problem is that all the forum posts and guides for fixing Linux issues seemed to be aimed at people who are already well-versed in the Linux world. Like, I don't even know what "sudo" means, but I know you type it almost all the time in the console thingy. Perhaps I should invest some 10-20 hours in taking some sort of intro-to-Linux online course.
@@fredrikbystrom7380 it's the same as the UAC thing that windows pops up whenever it needs administrator (aka root) previledges.. prior to Vista, pretty much everything done using a user account with administrator priveleges is done with "sudo". (which is why deleting System32 is a thing and a meme in Windows XP). Vista despite of how malaligned the UAC "feature" was the proper way of doing things, and prompted users to grant "sudo" previledges whenever something requires administrator previledges (usually writing/modifying to protected folders)
@@fredrikbystrom7380 yes there are also plenty of tutorials and articles explaining unix/linux basics. Imagine yourselve first time seeing PC at all. Basically Linux is also OS but it has totally different paradigm.
I had the same feeling about it. It's why I eventually just googled wtf it was. "OH, Super User DO.. got it... elevated command.." But still.. In a world where the vast majority of us are used to right clicking and running as administrator, or even automatically having the prompt occur on Windows or macOS, they need to either do one of those minitutorial bits while it installs, or change it to be more intuitive. It's fucking 2021. Act like it.
“An idiot admires complexity, a genius admires simplicity, a physicist tries to make it simple, for an idiot anything the more complicated it is the more he will admire it, if you make something so clusterfucked he can't understand it he's gonna think you're a god cause you made it so complicated nobody can understand it. That's how they write journals in Academics, they try to make it so complicated people think you're a genius” ― Terry Davis, Creator of Temple OS
RIP Terry. May Holy C be compiled on many PCs.
Linus is conflating "different from what you're used to" with "complex." Some problems don't have simple solutions.
A literal schizophrenic racist
@@edgay Schizophrenia made him paranoid and delusional, and sadly it caused him to believe that racism was a way to fight back against perceived malicious actors and forces. Mental illness isn't pretty. He was otherwise a brilliant man, and his mental decline was incredibly unfortunate.
"Unix is simple, it just takes a genius to understand its simplicity."
For those having issues like Luke had with OBS, OBS looked like it was set to 44 khz, sample rate, while iirc pulseaudio (the sound system linux mint uses) tends to run at 48. The conversion tends to mess with the sound making recordings sound "weird". ;) Maybe OBS picked up the proper sampling rate after restarting it.
I’ve dealt with differences in sampling rate between programs on Windows before. Not too strange of an issue
Of course this should be something that would happen automagically. OBS reads the audio config file of the mint instance.
I had problems with earlier iteration of discord as it kept changing the default volumes in Ubuntu 18.04. Now using Pop OS 19.04 or above and there hasn't been such an issue. It's still weird but I've not tried to mess with alsa or pulseaudio that much either as I got new mic, which didn't need any changes.
Then it shouldn't be an issue in the future since the future will bring Pipewire to every desktop. ^^'
@@ArdgalAlkeides Fair comment in this situation for sure. Maybe the sample rate being off duplicated the audio somehow? My experience with OBS is only within a windows OS lens... Which may have caused me to not immediately jump to this issue.
I hope we get an Anthony Reacts to this series once it's finished, I'd love to hear his comments on this all
Same but before that i have been watching some linux youtube channels reactions. 🙂
@@nebulous962 can you point me to some? I mostly only watch Level1 for linux stuff, so I haven't seen many reactions.
@@NaGeLxZ I like TechHut and Brodie Robertson. Chris Tech Tips and Distrotube are also good. I was recommended to watch DJ Ware, but I felt he was a little more technical than I was ready for and he seemed to take Linus’s series the most personal.
@@NaGeLxZ i was too slow. John c gave some good recommendations 🙂
@@NaGeLxZ gardiner bryant is also good. 🙂
The "doesn't work/leave it broken/now it works" cycle has been about half my experience with Linux. The other half is "does work/leave it working/ now it's broken".
You ain't ever lied! Lol even epic games store. I couldn't make it work. Then it foux work. I installed games and was very happy. Next day it was back to its old problems
My cycle is doesn’t work/try to fix it multiple times/works or works/works
Screensharing is a mess for experienced users as well on Linux, as its going through a transition from X11 to Wayland, Wayland is using Pipewire and proprietary NVidia drivers don't support this as well. So even as someone who daily drives Linux, I emphasize with the difficulties that Luc and Linus are going through here.
Wayland isn't using anything. It's just a protocol and there are different implementations.
I think you might be misunderstanding what "Wayland" and "Pipewire" are. Wayland is not a program but a standardized protocol (Microsoft could add a wayland WM to Windows for example). And Pipewire is both a protocol and a program implementing this protocol for a media server. You can use PW with X and you do not need to use PW and a Wayland WM.
Window capture can get really annoying on Linux. I have came across many issues with GNOME 42/43 window capture especially.
Linus on Pop os: "I shouldn't have to use the terminal to install software" Linus on Manjaro: *Ignores app store and goes straight to terminal*
He's learning.
Manjaro or Arch is one of the worst environments to go feet wet in as a first time user. A lot of the guides you find are for Ubuntu so you will have to know and how to adapt it, and it is a variant of Linux that is built for terminal operation. And the reason for that is that Arch' philosophy is to only give you a basic amount of packages to boot the system, then you add what you need for various functionality.
@@CMDRSweeper I disagree. I started out on Manjaro as a new user and it was an unstable mess. But that forced me to learn how to fix things. And that's what made me an experienced Linux user. Yeah, Debian based distros are more stable, but this "hold your hand Ubuntu land" mindset leads to a boring asf desktop experience.
Linus needs to go back to windows like the other braindead users. Linux is not for someone who isn't willing to think for a living. I'm so disappointed in him.
@@CMDRSweeper Which is why he chose it. Linus deliberately chose the distro that was going to paint Linux in a bad light because too many of his sponsors are windoze dependent.
I'm really greatful that linus had that "how do I run a .sh file" moment, because while it's incredibly simple once you learn how to do it, many forget that it's a skill you have to learn at some point, and those really add up over time. And if Linus, who is really is well versed in tech, didn't know how to do it right out of the get go, it is clearly not "common knowlage" as I often see posted online. Yes, you eventually get used to googling something, running into a stack overflow post that leads into a github page, downloading a script and running it, but every single one of those steps require you getting used to them, reading through lingo and trusting a random stranger on the internet. If there's anything you taught your grandparents when they started using a PC was that you are not supposed to do that: you don't download and run random files that you get on the first search result.
This is exactly the reason why scrips aren't automatically executable until you grant them permission, but I guess Linus doesn't care about security that much lol
Yeah that one struck me to, for someone that is used to do server maintenance on a regular basis i am more than once astonished by the well rounded knowledge of both hardware and software from lLnus. Not knowing how to run an sh script seems rather dumb, until you indeed realize that it is something that is completely unintuitive for an non linux user. It is the small things that we are so used to just as the issue Linus encountered afther that. Which was probably an line ending issue which forced linus to copy his file to an text editor and save again.
Truly a completely different world on Linux. The "learning how to walk" phase is absolutely brutal over there, and a big part of it is that a big part of the community hates teaching people how to walk. Granted, Windows has that phase as well, it's just that virtually everybody learns how Windows functions at a young age and it becomes a fully intuitive process. That said, as long as linux lacks definitive executables and requires some sort of per-distro compilation, it's going to be bad for the average person. A whole lot of room for failure and it doesn't matter how polished up it gets unless it truly becomes 100% smooth. Honestly, I'd argue that polished up linux is easier to use than windows (the package managers are incredible, and the way updates are handled is truly great, and as long as your hardware works with open source drivers, the experience is much better than windows), but the moment something goes wrong or enters unsupported territory, linux borderline requires a computer science background and windows doesn't have that same problem, and it will always be that way as long as the core architecture of the platform stays the same. Would love to be proven wrong one day though.
It's _also_ a skill to know that .html is what makes a web page or that .exe makes an executable on Windows, so it's not like he was entirely fair... (case in point: the default is to hide extensions on windows)
you said ..."if Linus, who is really is well versed in tech..." I'd say he's really well versed in Consumer Tech like smart phones, TVs, gaming monitors and gaming gadgets in general. He has a staff to "figure out" all the technical details behind the scenes.
Disclaimer I'm a developer/software engineer, and I love linux for what it does for me and what it allows me to do. However, I do agree with a lot of the experiences that Linus, and Luke have found. There are some experiences that are buggy and annoying on Linux. The Desktop experience has gotten a lot better over the years, but still has a long way to go. While I am capable of doing a lot in the command line, some things are better done in a GUI, and even as a developer I do appreciate when things just work. Although as a developer and some of the horrors I've seen it's a miracle any of it ever works, although I digress. I do appreciate that you Linus and Luke have done this challenge, and published the issues you've found, as you have a louder voice, which can effect change to make things better. I hope that in the future you periodically take on the challenge again because I think it's good for the community. While Linux's varied distributions are a double-edged sword, it is that power that give it the potential to be a powerful tool for a lot of different uses. While I'm not a hardcore gamer, I do think that Linux definitely has the potential to eventually become a contender, if it has the right backers, and irons out the issues you encountered. I would never expect a normy to use GitHub(web GUI for Git)/Git(command line based, although there are GUis), it is a wonderful powerful developer version control tooll, with a bit of a learnig curve. That said the right click save as, and get HTML crap is a browser thing, that can be an annoyance and the workarround aways requires a few more clicks to get to the raw text, that you can then download/copy. What might be a better way to do things in these cases whould be to click the button to download the git repo as a zip file, and copy the file out of that, as you probably don't care about the history of the files, that you would get from using git to clone the repo locally. The old adage "Have you tried turning it off and on again." While is less applicable to Linux, and there are usually ways to work around it, there are still places where it does apply. One thing I always do is enable Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to restart the GUI because on rare occasion I have had Linux freeze on me(usually my own fault tinkering to get something to work). Another case that I've found this applies for me is with my work's VPN, which has iffy Linux support, and every once in a while it decides to not connect. Ive tried killing and restarting the process to no avail, although restarting the whole darn computer does works. So with that VPN something gets in a stuck state, but I have yet to discover what or how to reset it. At this point I just see it at the tax my employer pays for choosing that VPN. A note to Luke I unfortunately have to use Teams for work, we were just switch from Google chat(Gchat) much to my chagrin. The app is absolute buggy trash, and I don't use it. The web interface is better and more stable and seems to do what I need it to, just in several more clicks, and in a more cluttered UI than Gchat. I have used slack in the recent past and found it better for chat, but video features are a little limited and require the app which is a resource hog. For video chat/screen sharing the best that I've used on Linux is Zoom, although Gchat was decent as well. Although I've found that all video chat/desktop share has, and probabbly always will have hicups no matter what OS/app combination I use.
Some good points. I run a dual boot and whenever in Windows 10 I'm always surprised how laggy it is with so many useless background tasks running. Some things are easier to get to run on Windows, some on Linux. But when they run on Linux it's a buttery smooth experience, not the case on Windows.
These are the types of Linux users I appreciate, I just started dabbling with Linux Mint, and had a painful experience getting a USB Wifi Adapter to work. It was compatible with Linux but the install disc was a pain to work with. Rather than having an .exe file to just click on, I had to unzip 2 folders from the disk onto my computer, tried running the script it came with(after having to learn how to even run an .sh file as a script) only for it to not work. 3 hours later, I had to look up the chipset of the device and search google until I found an article telling what commands you can punch into the terminal to install the chipset drivers and finally, I had Wifi for my computer. While it's a bit discouraging, I will definitely keep exploring the world of Linux, and may use along side Windows.
Mac is like driving an automatic. Windows is like driving stick shift. Linux is like building the car while you drive it.
Linux only falls apart when distro devs tries to make "user friendly desktop distros" - Linux should stick to point 3 and stay there.
So Windows and Mac is superior to Linux by your analogy. Nice. I'll take a ready made car with any transmission over building one that's not going to work anyways.
@@kvin9210 I didn't say anything about superiority. When you get down to it, Linux would 'win' by default simply because practically all of the servers that make up the internet are running it. In other words, you're using Linux whether you like it or not.
weren't graphical user friendly operating systems made because normal people didn't want to us msdos? and do everything with prompts, which needed a certain understanding of syntax? if a operating system doesn't have it, you haven't even entered the 90s. i can understand security and being open source, but that's better for servers ran by experts, and not desktop consumers. the whole linux elitism on desktop just doesn't make sense.
@@oraclejmtIt's not that distro devs fail. Native distro software works flawlessly, but pop os and steam had somehow created a weird issue which steam fixes later on. The real issue is commercial softwares maker not testing their product on Linux and not supporting it. And nvidia is whole another issue.
This is the "vendors treat Linux as second class citizen, if they are even aware that it exist" chapter. Sadly, the community can't pick up the vacuum left by companies with 1 man projects (like the GoXLR) when they don't offer support or when the software is closed sources (Teams/Discord).
Yeah. Lots of the stuff that lacks first party support lacks it because they're closed codebases or otherwise use proprietary methods. But because linux doesn't get used by a lot of people, 1st party software is never developed, so people don't start using linux and it jsut repeats
yea, this is the real crappy bit. There's plenty of good FOSS on Linux (obs comes to mind), but when paired with shitty drivers for your devices.. well, you're gonna have trouble.
Good point. In the past, Linus has released vidoes to review a new tech gadget that might work GREAT on a Mac iPhone, but terrible on Windows or Android. Certain new-aged headphones or earbuds come to mind. In those videos he'll highlight and mention the software (and hardware) was designed and inteded for a different OS. HOWEVER, even though the same is true of Linux he doesn't seem to notice. The thing is he has staff and contacts (Luke Lafur, Anothy Young) who really should know this already and need to mention it.
Are you the famous Braiam from Stack Overflow???
When it comes to audio gear - i make sure to only buy stuff that follows standard USBHID Audio Class protocol, as its guaranteed to work and work well. Either way, any piece of hardware ill include Linux support as a part of my research before i buy the items. The GoXLR is just not a good investment for me... but a behringer UMC22 for a XLR MIcrophone Connection? and a Korg nanoKontrol2 standard MIDI controller for physical faders? Perfect, flawless, absolutely no issues. Just do the audio processing in software via JACK (its better than pulse alone, and i prefer it over direct use via OBS)
While a lot has to be said about defaults on Linux, most of the issues basically boil down to "Companies don't give a crap about the experience on Linux". The open source community has to fill in what companies don't do for their own products and that's without specifications, documentation or any sort of help. It's no wonder the final experience isn't great.
The experience is what you can make of it. When I go camping in the wilderness I have a good time. I eat well, I have decent accommodations and enjoy it. But it's still the great outdoors. You're in the elements with wild animals, insects, etc. You're living in the dirt. It takes a special kind of mentality to cope. You have to make allowances.
Yeah I feel this needs to be recognized that everything (or the majority of stuff) is being done for free by programmers without the end user in mind. The art of the botch as Tom Scott would put it. Their goals are to get it working, not to refine it to perfection for the end user. With only 1% - 2% adoption by desktop users, it's pretty amazing everything works this good. If adoption were to increase I feel like a lot of these issues would quickly get fixed with the increased attention to the platform.
We don't need their support becauz we don't need their proprietary GARBAGE anyway. They can keep that shit to themselves.
And when It's made by devs, user experience is left unattended making it horrible. To a tech savy dev it won't but to most A/B-tier windows power users and below, it'll be confusing and frustrating.
Companies ha e no real incentive tho and it would require a tone of extra staff/overhead to make all of their software and device compatible with even just the most popular distros If linux wants a wider general adoption and support they need to have more synergy between distros and at the very least stop the community gate keeping
Im a linux user and dont disagree with anything here. There needs to be more user testing like this and more calling out compaies who dont support their products on it, or at least put a big windows only sticker on their products.
Top tip. Don't use hardware that is not supported, and don't complain about people who try to make that unsupported hardware work for you.
They already do, lol
I am a long time linux user and am happy that you are doing this as a proper effort. Thank you for being realistic.
What I hear is: when a company invests commercial time into making theirs or other's products work better on a platform, the user experience is better. When it's actively ignored, the user experience is terrible. With the amount of time Valve has invested in Proton (on top of the enormous effort the community has invested in wine), I can see why the "what games will work?" went surprisingly well.
Precisely. Poorly designed software isn't inherent to windows or Linux, it's more about what kind of effort was put into the program.
Example: Nvidia.
@@Raleighthrbub123 It's really interesting with Linux as, according to a capitalistic market, these distros as a free product really shouldn't exist. Most the work is done by people who freely give their time and expertise to make the platform better which doesn't make a whole lot of sense in our money driven world. But it IS AWESOME!!! Like the gaming MOD communities, I have a lot of respect and appreciation for these kinds of people in the digital space.
Yes! And with more and more people switching over, companies will have no choice but to do that. Here's to hoping it happens in the next 5 years :)
@@Artanis667 Even in a pure capitalist market sometimes it just makes sense to give something away. You get goodwill, new community members and contributions, basically free work!
what i've learned so far: - luke's more considerate approach + mint seems to be working out better for him - linus' frustrations reflect both "enough to be dangerous" techies and overdetermined casuals and provide important feedback on major issues (even if many are re: documentation and community attitude) - the 2nd class citizen catch22 is still a problem to this day
Linux mint failed horribly with the proprietary drivers with my 3080ti. So it's no magic bullet as the kernel and drivers are outdated. I went back to Win10
- MANJARO HAS APT-GET INSTALELD?
Second class citizen catch 22? What's that about?
@@nickgrishin2068 thats talking about hardware and software that has no official support. So even if they can get them working ( -like Discord- , and Linus's GoXLR) they generally don't have full functionality. Edit: I was mistaken on Discord not having a native client, A quick google search shows they started supporting Linux some time in 2018/19. I'm not really a Linux user, I was just trying to explain what was meant by "second class citizen catch 22"
@@nickgrishin2068 Since linux has so few users relative to windows or macos its not worth it for companies to develop specifically for it, which leads to fewer users since there is no official support which leads to the company not developing the software and so on and so forth. Hence its a catch22 or a positive feedback loop.
9:26 Canary is one of the public beta versions. It could be unstable sometimes, but it works
"I've heard you don't have to turn things off and on again on linux" Usually true unless it's audio or networking related, which deserve a special place in hell
Pretty much. Especially with the whole OSS/Alsa/PulseAudio fiasco going on.
amen
FINALLY! The only problem I have with these episodes are they are too short!
Well, they’re not short. They’re just very drawn out, practically nothing was covered in this video, it’s appalling
@@shaheenshaikh8368 gave you a dislike
Moooorrrreeee
I agree with you
@@mrfoxycracker4836 you hurt the spambot's feelings, you monster!
For the record, the reason you got an HTML file when trying to download the script is the the link takes you to a web page with a preview of the file. Then you can click "Raw" at the top to get to the actual file.
Please watch the WAN show, they discuss this in detail.
@@blazer192837 they recreated the WRONG actions in the video and it was same as described in WAN show this correct description of the situation
@@freespam9236 Please watch the WAN show, they discuss this in detail.
The WAN show comments blew my mind with how ignorant people are. If a repository owner wants the end user to download a file, they're supposed to make a release for it. Releases are for releases. Telling the user to download a file in the code itself is pathetic. It's 100% a repository owner problem and 0% a GitHub problem. Almost 100% of the time, if you want to access the code, you're supposed to be downloading all the code at once, usually with git clone. Otherwise, if you ever need to download just one file from the code, then yeah, use the Raw button to get the raw file and press Ctrl+S to save it, no copy and pasting needed. This is the repository owner's fault, under no circumstance should a user be required to download a file in the source code itself, the source code is for coding, aka developers, the releases are for new releases, aka users.
@@PeterNjeim yes, it is the same problem when people blames Linus not take notice when the package managers tells him not install the package, because it is a bad idea, and he FORCES the CLI to do that, because Linus claims he knows what he do. And he obviously didn't. No, that is not Pop! OS fault, nor apt. It is Linus for not reading the warnings. Yes, it isn't his fault for not knowing. But it is his fault for not reading the warnings, and just dully enter any text to continue to do what the software say is a bad idea.
I really like this series and I hope it continues to bring positive change to Linux. That being said, I will remain a dual boot user for the time being.
Really love these Linux episodes. You are touching on some very important issues which I hope is seen by the right people.
I would love to have this concept with Anthony in parallel, just to see how he would addresses the issues Linus and Luke ran into
Anthony is an experienced person, he will make mistakes, but he will blame himself for making them. :)
@@dashcharger24 Which is not the point of the series. Linux fanboys on so much copium it's insane lmao
@@bloxxor420 Enjoy being a corporate slave.
@@ohayosumodayton1226 That's the best you can come up with? I hope you don't have the biggest tracking/data stealing device known as a smartphone in your pocket, freedom guy.
YES!
9:57 the reason that desktop notifications weren't working, was because Discord Streamer mode was enabled which disables notifications (Streamer mode automatically turns on when you open obs and turns off when you close obs)
Yeah i thought notifications are suppose to work. I use mint and they work perfectly fine. I was kinda confused why he said they are not working.
Then one might ask "why does it default to streamer mode with no indicator when obs opens". Another point of troubleshooting where it could be a million things and it just happens to be the one you as an end user didn't even think about.
@@nebulous962 Pretty much anything that uses notifications in linux should work out of the box, since linux makes it so easy to send notifications in multiple different ways. You can type notify-send "message" into the console and get a notification.
@@LycanEnforcer intresting 🤔
@@Real_MisterSir Discord SHOULD indicate it via a banner at the top of Discord, tho. That's always what happens over here.
1:50 dear linus, this is not a valid criticism. The different GNU/Linux distributions are technically different operating systems, you can not claim that something that works on one operating system should be done the exact same way on another. Just like you would not complain that the way you install an application on mac is different from how you do it on windows, you can't now do that with different linux distros. Even though they are called "Linux distributions" they are separate and independent projects made by separate groups of people, the shared "linux" name simply comes from the same kernel these DIFFERENT operating systems use. I do appreciate that you are trying to spread the word about GNU/Linux, but invalid criticism is not the way to go
6:55 This was a hilariously bad use of the github interface. The correct way would be clicking the file normally to open it inside github and then click the "Raw" button to get the file without any of the html around. But I do agree that it's not a super intuitive UI for people not familiar with github. Good video though.
Yeah, it's really a developer tool. Pulling stuff from Git to fix something in your OS is usually not a good idea. Use your package manager or pick a better distro if nothing works in your current one. That said, git clone Just Works(tm).
@@perkl1234 Sure, as long as you aren't cloning garbage... or malware :-/
"Don't expect to get a low battery warning for your mouse" I think this depends on the DE, in Cinnamon I can view the battery status for any connected device and it will give me a warning when my G603's battery is low.
he really shouldn't have used manjaro as his first distro as anyone who remotely knows linux will say. don't get me wrong arch is great but a static release distro is gonna be much more reliable
But a static release distro usually has way too old software. In Linux world that means GPU drivers too. That's why I chose Manjaro for my notebook and I never regret my decision.
@@V1tol I run Mint and have added additional repositories for Linux kernel and the Mesa library, so the most important software in terms of gaming performance is up to date, and if you're on Nvidia there's a PPA for the proprietary drivers too. I've tried Manjaro with KDE before and the best part of the experience was definitely the AUR, but KDE itself was just too buggy and I'm sure Linus will complain more about it in part 3.
@@sus-ln1nm i know lol, i use vanilla arch
@@rin0751 ok so you know how Manjaro basically delays packages by 1 week compared to Arch? Yeaaah..... that won't end well for Linus
A lot of the issues you had would be solved if those companies supported Linux properly, but they won't, because there isn't enough customers on Linux for them to warrant that. And people won't switch *to* Linux to bolster the numbers, because their peripherals don't work, creating a perpetual cycle of torment.
Yeah its hardly fair to expect something to work when it's enthusiasts reverse engineering it for free to make it work on linux vs the company who made the product supporting it on windows but at the same time its still something people who want to use linux just need to live with, at least for now
That doesn't explain linux specific issues like UI/UX that should have been dealt with decades ago...*nix users have been so "function over form" they can't be damned to learn how to combine the two for easy and powerful tool/system creation.
Agree, but support what version of linux? and that is the problem with the OS, there is no version or distro of linux that is user friendly enough to justify supporting it, I have a laptop with a linux distro and I like using it for some projects...but for the rest my personal computer will never be Linux, that will be just complicating my life for no reason at all.
**Hopefully** that will start to change soon now that Valve is more involved in Linux. Just hope that we get flat packs from them instead of releasing SteamOS packages.
It's not just peripherals they are worrying about. But this is the reality of Linux for it not being good enough to the average users.
Hey Luke. Your weird deep voice problem I think is probably a sample rate mismatch. It happens to me often when I have my audio interface at 48KHz and the OS wants to run in 44.1Khz. That's just enough of a lower sample rate to transform your voice a bit deeper without going into weird audio filter territory. Unfortunately this isn't exclusively a Linux issue, but mostly those of us who are working in the pro-Audio space and dealing with Consumer-Audio hardware and software. And in my experience, I often have to restart OBS-Studio even in Windows when I make big changes to my audio setup. OBS is just plain crappy when it comes to audio integration if you aren't using some out of the box, built-for-purpose streaming hardware, like a USB mic or go-XLR. When I started streaming I didn't buy that stuff because I had the real deal, being an Audio Engineer, But OBS doesn't even support ASIO in Windows. Not saying I"m contradicting the quagmire it is to get this stuff working on Linux, but it's a broader problem than Windows vs. Linux. I think that was the issue in any case.
As a person who uses linux, this was very fun to watch, especially when messing around with the system😁
Now after this series I would love to see someone like Anthony do the same thing from scratch and see how things work out for someone that knows Linux really well
It would probably either be a one part "series", where everything works out, or a lengthy one where he explains what he's doing. I'm down for both of it
Anthony already daily drives Linux from what I understand... he uses Arch. Once you know enough about Linux setting up a new system is a snap... process is far-far easier then Windows, makes it easy to distro hop.
Honestly, I suspect it wouldn't be too hard for Anthony to do the same things from scratch. For example, Linus did that thing with Windows in a VM to get his key mapping and RGB. I'd probably just install ckb-next and instantly have key mapping and RGB control (including animations) for my keyboard.
A bit pointless tho aint it. Person who knows how to use software uses software.
To prove what point? If you put in the effort, you have earned your place? Because if so, I'll tell you the BSD machine that I have running in my VMWare env at home is da shit...
The part when Linus saved the .sh file directly from the repo main page cracked me really good xD But I won't blame him. I'm taking Linus' take as a non-technical person's point of view, trying to game on Linux. I would definitely not expect anyone who doesn't understand how github works to take the extra steps of opening the raw file and save that as a shell script. 100% legit obstacle!
I was so much hoping that he would have learned to curl | bash there :)
But it also shows his stupidity. This can happen also on any other site with links. When you try to save as a link to somewhere you do not know it can return a webpage or a file. Do not assume things. This isnt a Linux issue. You can download a webpage under Windows also and try to "run" it. Blaming Linux on his own stupidity is even more stupid.
yeah it reminds me of my first steps into github, had the same issue as well.
@@TaaviJuursalu No, normal people will think that .sh file is like an .exe binary. So linux tried downloading it and failed running it.
@Prince Cooper Can confirm, built Android from the source in junior high and high school. Been using Linux since junior high also. Tired of people catering to unreasonable amounts of laziness/lack of understanding
The extensions are also used as hints for the Operating System, but it requires you to have "execute permissions" on a file before you are allowed to run it.
not quite true, in unix OSs you can change the file extension to whatever you like, the OS know what type of file it actually is from a magic number in the file properties identifying the file type
Why didn't KZhead put this video in my subscription box didn't even know part 2 came out until part 3 showed up
Fortunately and unfortunately, all of these problems seem to be almost entirely not inherent to linux, but inherent to a lack of platform support. A lack of support leads to less people using said platform and then less of an interest in supporting the platform. A catch 22 that I don't know if linux can pull itself out of.
I mean, you're not incorrect in what you said, but because so few people in the grand scheme uses Linux, regardless of whether or not it's a Linux based problem, it might as well be a Linux based issue as these issues don't crop up as frequently or in the same ways on Windows or even Apple OS.
Unfortunately Windows Phone died because of that. People want the apps, not the os
@@RegalPixelKing they don't exactly because they're more common, that's the point
Apple seems to have done it so there's hope.
@@haxwithaxe Well... Apple was like a spoiled kid in the past, crying for adobe updates like hell. They were annoying but that's the only way to make it work.
The reaction videos from the Linux community on Part 1 were surprisingly nice and polite
the ones for this video probaly wont be...
@@harm363H And for good reason.
@@pfred_ i know, i hope they wont be nice. Linus is unreasonable in this one
@@pfred_ what is that "good reason"?
@@wajdzikus linus is just trying to get people angry in this one. No other possible explanation. The whole goxlr thing, that's just pure bait.
This series inspired me to switch to Mint! This is the first KZhead video I'm watching on Linux!
How's it going so far?
@@MrKilljay I hate to admit defeat, but I've given up and switched back to Windows. The WiFi card in my PC didn't seem to be detected by Linux. It's a laptop, so I can't easily do much about it.
@@blackravenX Yeah. Wi-Fi is a huge pain in the butt with Linux. I've had many devices that I couldn't use Linux on because of that. Maybe try following this guide will help kzhead.info/sun/ltmNcbmXeWWFmHk/bejne.html
@@blackravenX you got lucky, when I was switching to linux mint I accidentally deleted windows 10. now I can't find a way to get it back. I've contemplated throwing my laptop at the wall a few times lol
@@ZverseZ That's to bad :/ Do you want your old Windows back or simply install a new one? For the first I would go to some data recovery company next to you, if you don't live to local, they could help me very well once; for the second case, simply make a bootstick and format the hard drive
Happy to see a shout out to the Nvidia proprietary drivers ! Their GPUs require authenticated firmware (microcode) inside the drivers, based on digital signatures, just so Linux can never develop an open-source driver for their cards !!! Talk about being anti-consumer ! As a long time Linux user, which pretty much means I must be a developer or integrator / administrator of some kind, I am very happy to see both of you guys putting up with this and trying your best to get things working !
Spending hours trying to fix something on Linux just to come back a day later and it magically be fixed is such an accurate Linux experience
Can confirm, I've started to get a lot more patience with computers because if I wasn't then nothing was gonna get done so when something just works after restarting I don't even question it
@@JihadiJesus Apart from some weird hardware-related issues, I don't think I've ever experienced a bug in Linux that would be fixed by restarting it. Either it works consistently or it's broken consistently.
My Ubuntu network driver uninstalls itself once a month, no idea why. I have a install script on my desktop to fix it
@ In my case it's overthinking something, giving up and later retrying in simpler way.
🤡🤡🤡
My god. Been using exclusively linux since 2007. I take some things for granted The problems they encountered should be like a guide for all Linux devs. We need to solve those. Its super easy to do!!!!!
Running a shell script is super easy. (# file path..../install.sh)
Well, an issue is that, as much as people like to proclaim "linux community" there is not one in the way people think there is. If you get 5 people using windows, they'll all expect the same thing out if it, but that isn't the case for linux. You have hard-core software devs, gamers, sys administrators, and a lot more random types of people using it in different ways. For some, a solid GUI is paramount and the terminal is bad, but for others a gui is worthless and easy terminal use all they nees
@@CaptainHalodude actually doing it in a Terminal is even easier if you right click on the folder to which the install.sh is located and say open in Terminal them run the ./install.sh command as long as you are root
These issues are not caused by Linux. It's caused by third party developers neglecting Linux. It's like if Garmin didn't support Ford vehicles, so you had to do a hack job to get your GPS device physically installed.
@@CaptainSunFlare Though to counter that, the reason why Linux server is widely used is because there's normally only one way of doing things and it does it very well and the terminal is very consistent as-well.
can you get someone like anthony at the end (in its own section) to explain what went wrong and how to fix it it would really help new people moving to linux.
Why would you want people moving to Linux when it's obviously not ready yet?
@@Erik-em9oz if no one moves to it developers won't care to develop on Linux any further then the bare minimum or not at all.
This series just made my mind about Linux, Linux is a cluster fuck that its only place is servers and pentesting
Andriod is a linux curnel
Truth 💯
@@ThePapaja1996 As someone that manages a couple of hundreds of android devices, android is a cluster fuck as well
Yeah, I'm not sure what Linus is trying to accomplish here, but it doesn't seem to be using Linux.
9:23 Canary is used to describe software that is the super new version that is basically the released version that regular citizens use if they want to be a QA. Like Android Studio has a regular, a beta and then a canary. Canary versions aren't really ready for release while beta versions are almost ready and might just need a few bug fixes.
why on earth not just call it the 'alpha' or 'nightly' release? At least most people will know that alpha is pre-beta and nightly is kind of self-explanatory.
It comes from the "Canary in the coal mine"... i.e. it's considered a dangerous build (alpha or beta quality)
Chrome Canary is same.
@@Steamrick a, b, c
@@Steamrick It's mostly semantics at this point, but a nightly is a completely automated process with a version each night, and a canary is a bit more manual. Both are the bleedingest of bleeding edge, with potentially unstable and incomplete features, but a canary build can be released more or less frequently depending on the rate of development or breaking bugs, while a nightly is strictly one version per day. The name canary is meant to evoke canaries in coal mines, where users are the canaries that detect the presence of bugs/toxic gas
Luke/Linus - also keep in mind that some bugs/issues from this video are due to the devs behind those pieces of software provide little to no Linux support at all, which is the infinite loop we've been dealing with for years: Devs won't provide Linux support for app because of lack of users/demand --> Lack of users/demand due to devs not providing Linux support --> Devs won't provide Linux support for app because of lack of users/demand, etc. etc.This is why some workarounds/patches done by the community (most often volunteers of various skill levels) sometimes are also buggy. Not saying your criticisms are invalid, just adding info that puts it into perspective.
You can say that but its slowly going away. Since companies like AMD and valve started support. Its brought me back since 2008 when I left it. I only keep windows around because I have CAD work on it. Everything else linux.
"The control panel looks like it is from 10 years ago" 😅 Dawg, it looked the same some 20yrs ago! 🤔 🤣
As someone who has started daily driving Linux (for work education being in IT and out of curiosity) I can say that the learning curve is definitely steep and the "help" is very here and there. BUT after something comes together and just works it's awesome. I don't think it's for everyone but it can be worth the hassle, if you are into tourturing yourself until you learn all the ropes to be a Linux Master.
Video idea: Let Anthony comment on all the problems they encountered in a follow up video
Linus won't do that, because it will make him look stupid.
They kinda discussed it in one of the last wan shows
Linus, you're our community's new #1 tester. Please keep making simple mistakes and getting things to change. Thank you
I felt that complaint about condescending tones with Linux uses. Same goes with a lot of developers, they just, for some reason, don't like newbs or people asking for help. Of course this doesn't apply to every developer or Linux user, I've met plenty of helpful people on discord and on forums, but many don't seem very welcoming.
Thank you for the contribution to GNU/Linux ecosystem! Spreading the word about user experience and common issues/annoyances helps to raise awareness about current state of the Linux desktop and take the right steps in direction of making things a lot more enjoyable and simple for the end users.
Linus, I noticed on Discord you were in streaming mode as indicated on the top bar of the discord window, I also encountered the notificaiton problem, while on windows, it turns out Streamer mode on Discord disable notificaitons to not interupt your stream. Hope that helps.
The TLDR of most things on Linux is that software gets less attention than Windows, so you need to compensate that with your own attention... unfortunately. Concerning Github file downloads. Yes, it is unintuitive and annoying. To download a file, click on the file in the list, and it will show the text content; then you click on "raw" on the top-right side, and then when you save it, it will be the correct format. You do not need to copy paste into Kate. And yes, sometimes you need to reboot. In actuality, usually logging out and logging back in is sufficient. In my experience, that is usually a desktop environment issue.
I would have thought he had to download the entire repo (the upper right green button and download zip) for the install script to work because of the other files in the repo. It would probably be easier anyway.
Git Hub tends to be the headquarters of people trying to fill in the gaps in support that major companies are reluctant to fill.
@@CapsAdmin depends on the project, tbh. Many provide a script that reaches back to the git repo to get the other parts automatically. Most that provide a script also provide the shell commands for copy-paste to download and run it, so it is somewhat poor luck Linus ran across one that does not.
open bash git clone boom, done
@@EliasEpicWin yea .. I was watching openmouthed at what's linus doing. with it
I really like Pop_OS and I even installed it at one point. I was amazed by how smooth it is. I followed a video guide on how to install things and stuffs to not waste time by exploring by my own. I would have switched to Pop_OS but there is only one reason why I changed back: Games. Genshin Impact, Mihoyo themselves haven't make it playable it yet. I've read a few in forums that Genshin's anti cheat system kind of stops you playing it in Pop_OS. (I think I tried this since last year, idk)
I see a lot of suggestions on this for Anthony to do the same, and I agree. But I feel like it'd be a lot more educating to have someone from the business side of LMG do a Linux install and have Anthony guide them through where they get stuck. Would help clarify/highlight a lot of issues that linux enthusiasts or general tech nerds know their way around.
As a Linux Sysadmin this series is hilarious. Can't wait for more.
Watching them use Linux is like watching a grandma try to use a PC
@@PennsylvaniaEAS that's not a good look for an OS
@@colto2312 1: I can many others can use GNU + Linux no problem 2: Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX. There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added,
@@PennsylvaniaEAS If I may interject....
@@PennsylvaniaEAS yo haven't seen that pasta in the last 20 minutes thanks for posting
"Canary" is similar to "nightly" So you get newer stuff more frequently but also with more bugs.
As in "canary in a coal mine."
It's like on Windows when you install a major update less than 6 months after release
Why not call it nightly then?
@@DeKempster because nightly implies its released every night. Canaries are for continuous release cycles but not on a specific schedule
@@DeKempster idk, but Google Chrome calls theirs Canary too
Windows "you must reboot to complete the installation". LOL
Hey says, "If any of that was true." But it is true. I'm a gamer and I've been rocking Linux for a few years now. Things just keep getting better and I've not regretted it in the slightest! FREEDOM!!!
9:15 FYI: Canary Builds of software are just a form of an early build like a Beta build. Canary builds are usually built off of nightly builds, IE a new one might get released every night. So you could expect the latest and greatest features, but the most amount of bugs from Canary releases.
That's great and makes sense. But the average Linux noob will NOT know that. It's better for programmers to use common terms like "test" or "beta".
@@sayrith its called canary on Windows too tho lol
@@GiffyHD Show me where it says that
@@sayrith If you take the download link to the Windows Discord installer but replace channel=stable with channel=canary it'll download the canary version instead. AFAIK there's no option on the website because unlike Discord PTB (the official beta) they really don't offer any support for Canary.
Like Stable -> Release Candidate -> Beta -> Alpha -> Nightly/Canary is a very common hierarchy of version stability, it's not just a Linux thing, it's a software thing.
To that font I say: "My eyes, my eyeees"
Thank you so much for doing this series! About to build a new gaming PC and want to avoid using Windows out of principle. Now I can learn from your guys mistakes and move straight into new and surprising mistakes of my own.
"And move into new and suprising mistakes of my own" self burns with enthusiasim. All the very best dude
There are more linux forks right now than there will ever be atoms in the entire universe.
The video editing in this is incredible. But I think I'd prefer more of the docu-style filmmaking of the first one. Even if it is 30+ minutes.
Honest question: what’s incredible about it?
What are you video editing with?
@@codycast mucho worko my frien. I also like it, while sometimes forgetting how much work is done to make it this good.
This series is kind of needed. Being only slightly above Linus in terms of Linux knowledge, I want to use Linux but it feels like high level beginners are told to F- themselves until they become low level experts. Hopefully this helps Linux contributers target the areas that need work in terms of documentation, explanations, and patches.
in all fairness, Linus going with Arch-linux is literally throwing himself into the deep end. Even among linux enthusiasts, Arch tends to only be recommend to people to already experienced. Mint on the other hand has a lot friendlier approach (as Luke had experienced) but ofc there are some issues that are just "linux" things (like unsupported drivers). As sorta a beginner myself, honestly asking for help mostly been a pleasant experience (at least in a few discord servers that i'm in), but at the same time, all i've been using it for is programming(i.e. work), which doesn't exactly differ between Windows and linux (tho running certain languages is easier on linux)
@@rim7961 If you have enough programming experience to get work for it then I'd say you're not a beginner
truth be told linux in of it self isn't hard at all you will just have to do a lot of reading and googling at the beginning and build up your basic knowledge in the linux comunity there is a saying that goes rtfm(read the fking manual)
@@realfangplays Im a fairly experienced developer and basically rarely ever had to use Linux. Only started recently with my new job.
@@combatjeyj6234 and for me it's a problem since I don't have time to read a manual after manual if the first one that I read didin't work. I already multitask basically everything that I consider hobby or pleasurable experience on my free time since i don't have time to do one thing at the time. But I want to use Linux since I'm fed up with CORPOS I am even willing to throw money at linux on annual basis if things become easy to use. But this mindset of STUDYING linux to make it work has to go away if Linux aim to be major desktop OS. That being said I'm looking forward to SteamOS which as I understand gonna be a legit DISTRO. Just as an example my experience with mint. I nuked the desktop on my first install somehow, not a big deal reinstall read some manuals/guids it worked I launched browser, admired UI a bit and went back to windows since my weekend was over. Than ran some console emulators and wireless controllers, no probskies everything works just fine. Weekend is over, back to windows. Last weekend I tried to launch Guitarix and ToneLib for my guitar learning, and my conclusion after messing around, that I'm not booting Linux until January since I don't have time for the shit that needs to be done to run those two apps. I already tried a lot and it seems from what i gathered that the best case would be just to install Distro that is orientated to music production so that it has everything set up from the box , but than everything I've done on my DE setup wise will be gone and I'll have to do it again. Where's on windows you install asio4all drivers restart your computer and it just works. Oh yah and I hate treminal. Now before linux fanboys and girls start attacking me I just want to say that I'm enjoying messing around with mint, I like the customization that it provides out of the box that you can do with your DE I enjoy package manager (the thing where you can search for apps and just install). Fricking LOVE the fact that my ancient laptop is running CINAMON and barely lags if at all where it is useless on windows at this point and unusable because of lag. That last point alone is why I want LINUX to be better because the idea of using machines that are old but still working is amazing there's so many things one can do to use them as media machines or some sort of controllers. I'm already plotting on how could I use that old laptop as controller in my workshop (once i have one). But that's for future right now I'd love to make my guitar practice machine with all sound effects and what not. One last thing I love how cinnamon feels and looks it just reminds me of windows XP best UI/UX wise experience I've ever had. The search in start menu just frikin works so good it's like reading my mind or some shit it's crazy how good it is. So yah linux community, I think it's time for you to make ur mind do you want linux to be bigger and have more users or you want more power-user? Because your "advertisement" that is going on through linux youtubers for the most part is confusing if not borderline purposely misleading.
Great challenge. Awesome job. Did laugh at the Discord Canary bit, but that's just my dev brain.
i think linus makes a good point, linux is really meant for people that know how everything works. that being said if you just set your daily driver up with linux and work through the issues, eventually it will work and you will own your computer as much as you can on a consumer level.
From this episode, it seems like this isn’t an inherent fault of linux. It seems like most companies just ignore support on linux and enthusiasts have to create their own support for linux. Also for github, they are a ui for a git repository; trying to right click and download from the main screen will download the html because of anchor tags in the html. I think an easy fix is adding a more apparent download button after someone clicks on the file
this tbh. i wish companies gave a damn about linux but they really don't. well hopefully the steam deck makes them reconsider
Holy fuck this guy gets it. Seems like a GUI issue, why no download button? Also, the road goes both ways on the linux versus companies fault. Major distros are companies too, not with as much money, nor power, but its will also be your fault when your product isn't working for its customers. Thats just how shit works.
@@blazer192837 there is a download as zip button on the main page of every repo...Linus is just making things hard for himself
@@Atropos148 well, the guide told him to download that single script file, so why would he download the whole repo?
In Github, there is a download button if you click into the file (although, its labelled as 'raw' not 'download'). The double-edge sword of getting things designed for Windows working on Linux is that there is often a workaround out there, but you will often need a workaround too.
Linus, one thing you could do to improve the situation with hardware support for linux, would be to actually bring it up as a point of discussion for hardware reviews or PC builds. You could for example complain about nvidias linux drivers nvidia GPU reviews. That might get their attention to take linux seriously. And that sound card of yours could use some love for linux. Perhaps tweet about it to get the manufacturers attention about it. You could also praise hardware that has good linux support. Similar to how you want hardware to be open and maintainable (framework laptops) you should want the same for drivers and software. You could also do linux PC builds where you use hardware that works great with linux.
This would make the most sense to be honest. Why are we so quick to want to dismiss an alternative than to try and build it up? Anthony would be PERFECT to make Linux content to properly bring awareness to Linux issues and try to get them the attention it needs.
Yeah, Linus and Luke are being a little too negative about linux at this point. Many of the problems they face are the fault of manufacturers ignoring the exsistence of linux, not the fault of the linux community. Linus has the power to change the playing field for this stuff, and I'm glad he is starting the road to do it
@@scottbigbrain3944 To be fair they did say that surprisingly in most cases things weren't not possible to do and that they advise people to set their expectations and know what they are getting into and that in only a few situations their wasn't an answer to any particular task they were wanting to accomplish. It's a devils advocate approach which is fine in the context of this "challenge", but moving forward it would be nice to see efforts to help keep the gaming community informed of what is going on with Linux and how previous issues are being resolved. Linux isn't like Windows it's ever changing and in the last few years alone it has grown at an astounding rate...a few years ago we didn't have performance parity with Windows for example and dealing with controllers was a hit and miss.
@@ruineka_one They want all their windows programs and devices to just plug into linux like they expected changing the OS was no more complex than a CPU upgrade. I dont think they are looking for new linux compatible alternatives to the old windows programs they are used to (if they are they didnt say anything about the results of those searches or experiments). This whole stream felt like someone switching from an iPhone to android and wondering why iTunes didn't just sync their data or why you cant find apple maps in the playstore.
They already do Linux content, however with Anthony being the only Linux user and he is a very busy man they can only make so many at a time. I think the entire point of this challenge was to help Linus get up to speed on what real day to day Linux usage looks like
In my opinion what (I think?) many view as Linux biggest strength, I believe is really its' biggest weakness: fragmentation. Too many different distros that specialize in different things, thus making it virtually impossible to replace the likes of Windows. Now, I usually go with Debian-based distros whenever I do give it a try (as i understand they're supposed to be the most beginner-friendly(?)), so I don't know if that's part of the problem: but I've always been astounded by how easy it is to break the OS and make it unbootable or otherwise broken to the point of becoming unusable, just by following one or more guides that happen to be outdated (often there's no good way to know, and sometimes they are actually up-to-date and still don't yield the promised results), and on top of that, few of said guides even explain what all the commands are actually doing, so reversing whatever damage has been done quickly becomes difficult (or nearly impossible for someone of my skill level). Unless you're willing to begin again, that is. It has been a couple of years since I last gave it a try, but judging from the video many of the problems I ran into in the past are still there. Other than that I feel that these videos have done a good job of demonstrating why Linux isn't likely to become a proper replacement for Windows for a long time yet; if ever, which is saddening, because if it was I would've ditched this mega-corp OS already, and I believe that goes for a lot of people out there. Just my take on the matter.
Agreed. There's far too much of either gapping or overlapping of features, some of the latter that cause conflicts. It's been a few years since I've used Linux, but that's really only because I liked the challenge of getting it to work properly. Now that I'm past that and just want things to work when I want them to work, I'm back to Windows.
Fragmentation is good imo. At least there are always alternatives. If you can't choose, just choose a mainstream distro, like Ubuntu, Mint or Manjaro. If you don't like fragmentation, don't worry about it that much.
@@matyasmarkkovacs8336the issue os that fragmeantaion means software support is even spottier than it would otherwise be And for most normal people distro hopping is an absurd suggestion Something doesnt work? Just reinstall everything(and maybe even relearn a diffrent UI) and maybe it might work
@@zjanez2868 It's not that big deal. The biggest differences between the distributions are the package managers, the DEs and how often they get new feature updates. Just choose an easy distro which you like and you'll be fine. Usually Mint, Zorin, MX and Manjaro are good choices for an average user.
I think this was a pretty fair review. You have purchased the best of hardware with all the bells and whistles because you are professionals in what you do. I totally get that. I tend to ONLY buy things I know have Linux support, at least, acceptable Linux support, so I don't run into these problems. I "vote with my wallet," as it were. I am taking this as you had a pretty fantastic experience so far. So, well done! :)
"If github is only for developers, then Linux is only for developers." In an ideal world, Linux is shaped by the contributions from users. There is no corporation selling you something, this is a community built tool. So in a way, yes, Linux is for developers.
@Watcher so is visual studio code, but it's open source. Git is also open source.
Awesome. So it shouldn’t be used by everyone.
@Watcher most of the linux distros are not using github, but their own repositories
@Watcher TIL Linus created Git
@Watcher You must be fun at parties. Our pokemon friend here just said he just learned that fact because of you smartie pants. TIL = today I learned
"apps that fix themselves can also unfix them selves - choosing the most critical time to do so" - DaVinci
SO true.
DAVINKI??
You can say it's a... DaVinci Resolve.
that's exactly what I thought every time they mentioned something magically fixed itself. I'll hardly ever leave anything alone like that without figuring out either exactly how it got fixed or exactly what broke it because if I don't, then the next time it happens to break itself it'll be a month or a year later and I'll have totally forgotten how to go about fixing it and it can result in some nasty downtime
Exactly. I've installed Linux on a few different machines now, including virtual machines, and there is always some unique issue with each one. While that isn't unheard of on Windows, it is a much more uniform experience over there. I personally HATE when the issue unexpectedly resolves itself too. If I don't know HOW to fix it then it gives me a bad feeling going forward.
Good examples of how manufacturing support really changes an experience. A huge amount of Linux stuff is built and maintained by volunteers and it's a huge credit to the community that so much is working. I've been using and gaming on Linux for ages - I prefer the experience to windows, jank and all ... but yeah, manufacturers failing to support the platform is a big barrier to making it user friendly
I would like to see a revisit of this series at some point to see if there have been any changes or developments with Linux
OMG! Thank you both so much for doing this series. LTT is doing the Linux community a service by addressing the obvious pitfalls of the Linux desktop. Together with Valve, you guys may help break the cycle of the lack of support from manufacturers due to lack of market share which was due to the fact that Linux has a barrier of entry from a UX standpoint that die hard Linux nerds refuse to acknowledge or rectify.
Some of the issues he mentioned are because of the corporations not supporting Linux. The Linux developers can't do shit about it(e.g. teams) Also its generally recommended to buy hardware that supports linux. Switching from windows to Linux generally doesn't go well, especially if it's modern hardware like these guys use. This again is due to companies not adding drivers to the kernel. Then some issues are because companies don't help developers with the internals, stuff like graphics issues appear because of that.
On the kernel side, most linux developers are employees of companies, tasked to add drivers to Linux. But when it comes to software, most of it is written by volunteers. You can't expect them to work on something they don't care about. For stuff that developers do care about, linux works way better than windows or Mac. Linux is not meant for casual users. Hopefully companies selling computers with linux support (system 76, frame.work) will change that.
@@adityapatil325 "linux works way better than windows or Mac." I beg to differ. If they can't get sound to work correctly on a new OS out of the box then I very much doubt that it works better than Windows.
@@DanielMosey You mean the OBS audio issues? I'm not sure that has anything to do with Linux itself, it seems to have been a problem with OBS not picking the correct sample rate.
Not sure what ux issue linux has, my mom's been running manjaro ever since she started using a pc. Linus is now windows. That said, the shit you get from nvidia ? yeah, that lacks ux love. Still a lot of configuration on linux is not in ui but in text files, something most windows users get screwed over. In case of nvidia though ? it's mix of software+env+txt.. it's a mess indeed.
My entire takeaway from this thing is "if you're new use Mint" Kidding aside- yeah, unfortunately the whole Linux being a second class citizen thing is all too prevalent. As there aren't a lot of users (and a lot of those users tend to be developers who can tinker to make it work ) on Linux + the fact that testing on multiple distros is a *ton* of effort, the software just doesn't get as much attention on Linux- assuming the software even exists.
I actually think this might unironically be true... Linux Mint might be objectively the best version of Desktop Linux.
tbh it is more do not use manjaro
I like PopOS. That it crashed for Linus due to a steam bug that only lasted a couple of hours / days is very unfortunate. I feel like Manjaro was a very poor choice.
@@seifenspender it was most likely already fixed and would of never been a problem is Linus simply updated his system after installing Pop OS.
@@someguy4853 To be fair to linus though, he didnt have enough experience to know to do that, which is part of the problem. LOVE linux, but its true that the barrier to entry is rough if youre not comfortable tinkering
As a Ms user since DOS, these guys have shown exactly why the normal user doesn't use linux. I've tried many distros over the years, and even have a box running Kubuntu which I really like but would never use it as my main PC. Most people are not nerds and don't want to be, they just want their system to work without having to go into terminal and run bash commands. Nor do they want to run wine, or install different packages, or spend hours and hours trying to figure out how to set up Samba shares for their particular distro, etc..., etc.... Windows has had its problems, but since Windows Xp I've found it to not even come close to the headache that Linux is.
This feels like all the issues I would be having if I started using Linux this year. We used to have to deal with a whole other set of issues back in the day and by comparison this feels like a cakewalk but the experience is still pretty bad
I've always felt rule one with Linux is buy supported hardware. It rewards manufacturers who bother and the experience improves 10 fold. All this accessing about with Windows only hardware and blaming the developers of the operating system seems really unfair. If I bought the Linux Super Box 5000, plugged it into Windows, got the 'no drivers' error and moaned on a Microsoft forum, what do we all think the outcome would be? And I would UTTERLY deserve the flaming too.
@@MostlyPennyCat This is the issue, they have no intention of using GNU/Linux and will make zero investment in using it. This video is simply for clicks and nothing more. None of what is said is a revelation.
The install.sh script would likely have done as it had been advertised if the whole repository had been cloned prior to running it. As a general note, the others files in a repository other than the file that is to be run are usually dependencies.
As a developer, I know what you mean - but this is not really acceptable for a end-user like Linus. Maybe have two versions of the script - one “real” one, and another that just clones the git repo and runs the same thing.
@@bakedbeanfanclub They should provide a one liner bash to download and execute it LOL
Came to say this; Linus is really not on the level typically expected of people who use these repos yet. The argument of "it requires non-trivial knowledge to use Github which can't be expected of novice users" is fair enough, but what he did there was bit painful to watch.
@@Lodinn Yeah, if he just clicks that “install.sh”, he will be able to download that with one click.
@@jiahaoxu6356 They shouldn't ideally. That's developer's repo, project and he has target audience in mind for his project. And there is nothing wrong with this as github is for developers. Honestly issues like this should be solved at distro level: it's distro which should easy single button solution. But we don't live in that ideal world. At least some nice folks sent PRs to the project, so now readme has proper installation instructions.
Watching these as a full time Linux user makes me realize I'm suffering from "the curse of knowledge". Every time a problem comes up I'm like "oh you can fix it with , it's easy!" But I often forget that my troubleshooting skills are way above those of the average user and simply writing a script myself to solve things isn't the way to do it for everyone.
I have the same problem a bit. But I think Linus (and to a lesser extent Luke) has the same problem as well. They're cursed with knowledge from a career of using Windows such that many of their criticisms of Linux so far feel like "different = bad". Many more valid criticisms though, which will hopefully be taken as constructive feedback.
Any tips for a beginner? I'm at the point where I'm installing Arch over and over again to get used to the process, and that's been helpful. Despite that, there are an insane amount of commands that you're expected to know, and they often have really obscure names and parameter syntax. Oh, and also, I've managed to get the Plasma Desktop Environment running on a virtual machine, but I cannot for the life of me get anything to happen when running it directly on an Nvidia system. I have to do CTRL+ALT+F2 just to use the system at all, and that's terminal-only.
But then again, it is pretty much the same on every OS.
Too long for a brag
@@_.gray._ try to go terminal only for some time things like i3 will be pain in the beggining but the more you have to do with terminal the more comfortable youll feel with it. Its literally just time and experience.
I remember being told Linux never crashes, which I found out was basically true for the kernel. However X11/Xwindows crashed as regularly as windows (98 at the time), making you lose any work you were doing. So from an end user viewpoint stability was the same... but hey at least Linux kernel hadn't crashed so I used ctrl+alt+f2 to open a second terminal to restart X.
when I tried Linux about 10 years ago, yup it never crashed. It just froze without any same to break/interupt but a hard reset.
at 9:22 If I am correct, beta is something close to final release, alpha stands for something before as beta release and canary is even more unstable than alpha. actually, canary birds used to have a purpose in some incidents, google it out, sad, but impressive.
9:20 Canary Discord is basically the open-testing version of Discord, for people that want to try out new features early.
surprised hes never seen that before as they have a canary build for windows too.
"Canary" in the "coal mine"
Yes Canary branded means bleeding edge. Linus acts dumb when he could provide actually useful information.
@@renvolt They obviously know what it means, it’s just that sometimes playing it dumb works better for the flow of the video.
Spotted a wild silly 👀
At this point, it’s a question of who will press the Emergency Anthony Button first.
Noone does, Anthony was let to rest for this challenge
That will defeat the purpose of this series
Linus lol. Luke doesn't seem to have such a bad experience xD
@@shaheenshaikh8368 wht is dis, why you pasting random links like that ?
@@ncmgamer5398 True, but didn’t they mention on WAN Show that they‘ll do an extra part for SteamOS?
9:25 Canary Discord is the equivalent of the Dev build for Windows Insider. It gets you the newest version (sometimes multiple updates per day) of Discord.
Google uses the same "canary" term for Chrome dev builds. It's a reference to "the canary in the coal mine", used to detect dangerous gases before they kill the miners. Users of the canary branch detect bugs before they get into the official release.