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One thing not mentioned in the video is the resistance to cyclical loading (fatigue) and to the seasonal expansion/contraction of wood. Pocket screws gradually loosen with both of these loadings. I use pocket screws for shop cabinets, never plugging them on the expectation they will have to be tightened up every once in a while to get rid of the rickety. I also have a biscuit joiner, inherited from my dad. I've used the stink out of it in both appropriate and inappropriate scenarios. "Appropriate" would be relying on the glue joint for strength and the biscuit for alignment. "Inappropriate" would be considering the biscuit as a structural member, as you would a dowel or a domino. I used to have that loose biscuit problem until I discovered what I was doing wrong. You have to hold the fence tight against the workpiece and focus on straight insertion and withdrawal, otherwise the rocking of the tool will open up the width of your slot. In most cases I need a mallet to lightly tap the biscuit in.
Good comment. Thanks for pointing this out.
Biscuits have their place. Sometimes you have to join the narrow face of boards. They are meant so much for high load. I used them in places where concealment is needed. I might combo with finish nails for extra hold where they will bight across the join but still be hidden. There are times when pocket screws are not exactly concealed. You can greatly increase the strength of a biscuit join with finish nails along with the wood glue. Each adds its own level of bond.
everyone always says that the "correct": way to use biscuits is to use them for alignment and rely on the glue for the actual strength. but considering how loose and inconsistent they are in thickness, i really dont see how theyre useful for even that.
use biscuits often, but I have to rely on the biscuit as glue doesn't bond reliably to melamine x) otherwise agreed
@@Hephera I guess there are different quality standards among brands, as long as I've punched the holes properly I haven't had any inconsistencies with my lamello branded biscuits. they're a bit expensive for biscuits, but really they're cheap in the big picture when bought in bulk for a business.
I love the reality check about ppl wanting to make "heirloom quality" pieces. You remind me of my good friend talking me down from overcomplicating projects using rational, practical, grounding advice.
Mathias had similar results with dowels a while back. Great to see the results reproduced independently.
I use biscuits all the time when I make custom dimension kitchen cabinets. (instead of the premade ones that have cnc drilled dowel holes.) The material is always the same 16mm melamine chipboard so I never need to adjust the fence whether I do 90° or flat plane joints. Just grab the tool, punch holes and glue together. And it is a non visible joint which is a must.
It is my understanding that that's what biscuits were invented for.
Buying a domino just to prove dowels are stronger is a true influencer flex.
😂😂 Truth! but totally appropriate for the high quality content he's been putting out!
So true. 🤣
+1, but ouch, what a burn
😂😂😂😂😂
In the real world you would put two dowels in this case, not 4. I’m not convinced :) (no, I don’t own a domino) Also you can add tolerance play with the domino, which seems great for long joints
I'm not a Festool fanboy, but a neat thing about the domino is the ability to cut wider mortises, providing some slop to the joint along the joint but not across the joint, allowing it to be moved a small amount when assembling, which dowels can't do but is intrinsic to the biscuit. It can be a lifesaver during assembly, and can have advantages for controlling expansion across the grain direction without causing splits. Edit: mortises, not tenons derp
I spent a lot of money NOT buying a domino, dowels, pocket holes, etc. Then I bought a domino, which I should have done first.
@@robertpearce8394 heh, that's kind of where I'm at. Fortunately I have access to a domino I can use occasionally without imposing on it's owner too much, but am finding it difficult to justify dropping that much for one I'd maybe monthly at best in a non professional context. But I'd probably (maybe) practice more and varied joinery if I had one in my garage. All of those tools have an application where they excel, though, so I don't consider them wasted money, necessarily.
Dowel can do, just remove the jig and tilt your drill in the hole in the right direction few times, you won't get much more than couple millimeters but that usually enough.
No. Still not worth it relative to the price
Re Festool. I worked in a yacht builders, wooden hulls and furniture, mostly oak and teak. There was quite a variety of tools, lots of Makita and Bosch, just a couple of Festools. Guess which tools were always grabbed by the first guys in the workshop each morning ? Clue: not Bosch or Makita . The dust extraction on the Festools was in a different league.
We still have the desk my grandfather made as his journeyman piece. It will get passed on the next generation too. Make it well and beautifully and it is worth it. Consider styles that are still used 100 or more years later instead of the latest trend though.
I still have the rock my ancestors used to sit on while making cave paintings, it'll never go out of style.
@@Skinflaps_Meatslapper It's a good rock.
Round rocks provided inspiration for future generations.
Problem is most people do not give a damn about things like this. Not to say build crappy things but it would stress me out like mad to try to build things with the idea of in a 100 years people talking about me......will never happen. And if it magically does, itd be 1 or 2 people and what will that do for my dead me? Bring me back to life? lol
@@lastdaysofhumanity4114 I dunno, if it survived the attrition of time and ended up in a museum or antique store with a hefty price tag, that'd be kinda cool. It's more for your kids and grandkids to enjoy rather than you, like planting a tree when you're too old to see it mature. Odds are none of us are going to be making anything that anyone will want a century from now, other than for the sake of family memories. Sometimes that can lead to a white elephant situation though, your great grandkids might not want the coffee table or rocking chair you made but would feel really bad if they sold it.
About 10 years ago, I built my 20' workbench in my garage. The frame and drawers were all pocked screwed together. The top was made from joined 2x4's using biscuits and a good glue. That bench hasn't budged. Still looks great and zero issues.
I have been using dowels and pocket holes for years. Dowels are by far my favorite. As you stated, pocket screws have their place. I sold my biscuit cutter, just never liked it and didn't feel like it fit my what I needed in my shop. I use dowels for joining table tops for glue ups. Makes the alignment process so much easier. I have tried my neighbors Domino cutter. I liked it, but have been using the Dowelmax and JessEm systems for so long, I have gotten really fast at making the joints. I use 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2" dowels and buy them in bulk so the cost is very minimal per joint. The strength of the joints are amazing. Every system has their place in woodworking. Every one has a preference and mine are dowels.
Bought the jessem and have not been sorry.
Bought the Dowelmax for 10mm and 6mm dowels years ago. Beats my biscuit jointer hands down for accuracy and is a fraction of the price of a Domino jointer.
Also love dowels! I use them everywhere beacuse they are EASY and strong as hell
Bought a dowelmax years ago and have been blown away by the quality. The machining is top notch, it couldn't be more precise.
How long did it take you to learn how to use it comfortably, any problems getting them to line up? I’ve tried a cheap one and it was pitiful 😂
@@baddog4347 they have a series of videos that cover how to use it. Important to note that you use the dowelmax and the domino the exact same way, by matching registration faces between your workpieces. The cheap "self-centering" jigs usually don't, which is why they don't align well.
If I were in a production shop I may opt for the domino but for most DIY’ers and occasional users the Dowelmax is a better cost/performance option.
I liked the concept of dowel joints and went through a series of jigs that only left me frustrated. Then I bought a DowelMax and after the first couple of uses I wonder why the other products are even on the market any more. The DowelMax is very precise and very configurable. You do have to learn to be consistent with the orientation of the jig to the boards on both surfaces, but the documentation that comes with the jig explains this to a degree.
I really found it hard to convince myself to pay a $200+ for a dowel jig. I made one from steel spacers and some scrap wood and it's just as good. Lol. Sometimes the psychology of paying a high price makes people think what they paid for was worth it. I admit it looks pretty though.
Hi Scott. Your channel is my favorite woodworking coaching channel. Great job and please keep it up. I'm learning much!
Bud. Your humor, delivery, and follow through on the topic is impeccable. Instant sub. Thank you.
I would sub too but he never answers and does not really care about his audience it seems. Shame.
Yup! "No one will want your furniture 30 years from now" 😢. I use pocket holes without glue so I can take the item apart and reuse the materials. Great video.
I like biscuits for panel glue ups because you can get the pieces flat and aligned before the glue sets up. I wouldn’t say biscuits help with strength more so they help align large pieces that tend to have inevitable warp in them. I’m also building 1.875” thick 14 foot long dining tables quite often at my job. For speed and precise alignment of joints my favorite is the Lamello Zeta P2 system. The snap in biscuits as well as the cam lock style are super awesome. They even help with the clamping force when joining pieces together. Just make sure you mark and join the pieces accurately.
Using exposed dowels also will allow you to do it without any jigs or fit concerns. I'll be doing that on the next structural project I do. I think they look cool too.
Your data and observations are helpful. I've used biscuits and pocket screws on home furniture projects where I'm not pretending to make showroom pieces, but sturdy everyday use in a busy household. Both are easy to use and have never failed me. But I see where dowels and dominos would be preferred. Thanks!
The biscuit joiner tool is great for z-clip slots for underside joining replaceable table tops. That's pretty much all I use it for. Bought it for joinery but pocket holes are great for quick and unstressed joints (drawers) and the other two are better for higher stress, more alignment perfect scenarios. Great video!
This comment fully sums up my thoughts. I’m staying with dowels just for cost. I’ve taken to careful layout and free hand drilling dowels as my jig just isn’t very good
You have to align pocket hole joints and that requires jigs.
I’m a mechanical engineering professor, you did well for an initial testing system, main issues are small sample size and you didn’t load the joint in it’s weakest orientation. I’d love to see how orientation effects strength between joints.
This is exactly the video I've been looking for. Thank you sir
Scott, the vid you showed of the biscuit joint test showed the failure of the wood, not of the joint itself. The joint actually stayed intact. Biscuits certainly aren't good for every joint, but in situations where you don't want to see the fastener they obviously superior to pocket screws. For instance, I've used them many times to secure face frames to cabinets...and they work great for that. Makes alignment onto the carcass a snap, and provides a rock solid connection of the face frames to the carcass.
I think that clip was the only biscuit joint where the wood failed, for the rest, the joint failed, but didn't capture as good of a camera angle with them.
A joint failure is a failure. The biscuit failed because the biscuit itself added no strength to the joint. Whereas every other method did add strength to the joint. So point lost. You can plug off pocket screws. That may not make them invisible but they can certainly look acceptable.
This is definitely the most useful place for a biscuit jointer. I know a couple long time professionals who use biscuits for face frames. As for the comment on pocket holes, there are times when the face frame is installed on site and there would be no access to screw from the back. And certainly any customer will be unhappy if you drilled a pocket hole on the inside of the cabinet.
@@1pcfred Through dowels are not invisible, but stronger. And cheaper.
@@Tensquaremetreworkshop people do seem to have a penchant for invisible fastening anymore. Just another symptom of the unrealistic expectations so prevalent these days. Things have to hold together with no visible means of doing so. My world must be more magical than Harry Potter's!
I made a design for a special wine bottle drawer where the bottom of the drawer was just essentially long domino-shaped strips that fit into coresponding domino-holes in the front & back of the drawer frame. The wine bottles rested in the gaps between the domino strips and they took the weight pretty well. And once sanded & stained everything came out lookin great. So there are definitely some interesting applications for a domino router besides your typical joint. You can also use it to cut out linear grooves of verying depths for verious purposes.
I really liked the video and the scale was a great quick and dirty way of showing the holding strength of each. I picked up the dowel tool and the pocket acres screw jig based off your video today. Thank you for the nerdy stuff which I am into!
I'm new to your channel. Watched 3 videos. I enjoy your delivery and info. keep up the great work. I'm subscribed.
Dude. I've watched a bunch of these woodworking experiment videos and as a scientist, I really appreciate you making replications and taking an average! Nobody ever does this! All that's missing is standard deviation but I'll let you off on that one. Well played!
i don't like stats that much 😂
To get decent estimates of higher order stats, like standard deviation would take more samples than most of us are willing to make! 😀
@@ScottWalshWoodworking Stats > Customers IMO
@@ScottWalshWoodworking Real world experience from time served, independent sources will get you to the truth.
Project Farm does the same thing as well, but that is for reviewing products and tools, not building projects. 😉
I really don’t use biscuits often but the joiner is handy for cutting slots for Z-clips to make removable table / desk tops. The Z-clips let the top expand and contract with temperature and humidity changes without destroying the frame or cracking the top
Man, you really have help me a lot to learn, woodworking is certainly an amazing hobby to have, but there is something that just the experience can give you, thanks for sharing that lot of experience you have.
This is the first of your videos that I’ve seen and it was enough to subscribe, I’m looking forward to more of this style of video. Thank you
Well, I'm glad someone openly said it. There are a lot of worse than bad dowel jigs out there. Early on I recall buying two dowel jigs. The first a budget jig. Then a mid-range jig. I kept wondering why I was so bad at dowel joinery until it dawned on me how really sloppy and bad these jigs were. In frustration, I essentially gave up on dowel joinery, unwilling to invest any more time and effort. I bought a Domino while I also use biscuits (sparingly) and pocket screws where appropriate. But yeah, a lot of really bad dowel jigs out there. I wonder how many people unnecessarily wrestle with dowel joinery not really knowing they're just using a crummy dowel jig.
I did the same after wasting so much time with crappy dowel jigs.
Have seen many give up dovetails also when it was a bad jig at fault.
I used dowels before getting a Domino. For large panel layups it works like a charm and each domino, especially if you are using the larger ones, each one will be stronger.
It all depends on the project you are working on. I have used dowel bisque and shrews. Good demonstration.
This is awesome you've covered everything I love the numbers
Great video and I enjoyed it. Thanks Scott. I do want to add a point in the favour of biscuits. I started out using biscuits, not using a biscuit jointer costing £200, but using a router I needed anyway and then a £10 biscuit router bit. For a real novice it was a cheap and easy way to make great joints at minimal cost. In addition it uses very little storage space. Often a real plus for a beginner.
That is only for somebody that wants to experiment and already has a router. A person with no router and not looking to experiment is not going down that route.
@@bighands69 Well, except that routers are super common and even if just starting out is hardly more expensive and far more versatile. I'd suggest if one does not own a router that would be a much better buy than a biscuit joiner.
@@marcelomelamed3196 I’m not really looking for fastest. Strong is higher on my priority list. Biscuits are often strong enough, but I’m more likely to just take the time to make a mortise and tenon joint if there is any doubt. More pride in that too, if that is something that interests someone.
@@marcelomelamed3196 just glue is even quicker 🤷🏼♀️
Thank you, from someone with adhd, for making the most interesting and comprehensive content i can find on my favorite hobby. Keep up the awesome work!
I wasn't surprised that pocket holes were stronger than biscuits. Biscuits seem like more of an aid in alignment than a joint.
Plus the fact that screws are made of steel, as opposed to wooden biscuits.
@@acerjuglans383 Sure, but ultimately, what fails is not the screw, it's the wood around it.
@@DonDrito just like with the biscuit test...
Then again its incredible how little strength is usually needed. And just a glue joint in itself usually provides more than enough. Peter Millard have some great videos on this. So many youtube-woodworkers are too caught up in measuring the strength of this or that, and not actually looking at what is enough to make it work in a real world scenario.
The "rotation" of the joint in the test is the exact thing a biscuit doesn't do - that was really a biscuit glue test not a biscuit break test
Great Video! For quick projects that I dont need a lot of strength from, I use pocket screws. When I need strength, I use a combination of dowels and pocket screws on the same joint.
This was great! First because it was informative. Second, because being critical of someone's wood joining methods, to some people, is like telling them that their kids are funny looking and can't sing. So thumbs up for the courage!
To be fair, your biscuit test really only tested the glue. It had no stress on the biscuit itself other than glue
The biscuit joint didn’t really fail, either, the board failed.
This was fun to watch and very informative! I recall first hearing about biscuits years ago when Norm Abram and the New Yankee Workshop started to use them. I do believe he’d odd a few table tops with them. This was before the Domino system from Festool (or even Festool tools!). But he did also use floating tenons on many projects. Of course… The was Norm, simply the best!
Festo (the original name) has been around since 1925.
Loved the balanced opinions and real-life application focus of this video! Thanks for the great overview
Great Video. They all have their place in the shop or on the job site. I use a triton dowel joiner which allows for 2 holes to be drilled at once and can speed up the process. It’s a great alternative to the festool domino. Though I don’t think it has the range of dowel sizes compared to drill jig you highlighted in the video. Even though biscuits might be the “weakest”, they still have their place. I use them mostly in casement trim around doors and windows. This is where that “slop” becomes really handy as it allows the piece to come together across uneven surface that you might encounter on a wall. I like to use Kreg screws to attach my face frames to box cabinets. You can hide the pockets between the cabinets in most cases except for the end caps. There are applications for all of these tools and methods.
One of the raps on dowels, typically related to cheap dowel jigs, is alignment. I've bought a few cheap dowelling jigs but I found the best, in my experience, is the Milescraft. It's only draw back is trying to use it on smaller workpieces. However, if you really want to eliminate alignment issues and you don't want to spend $200+ on a better dowel jig, get some dowel pins. With dowel pins, all you need is a drill, which you probably already have because hey, you're a woodworker. Yeah, you need to work on your drilling skills but a couple of small scraps of wood and you've got yourself a drilling guide for making straight holes. If nothing else, you can blame your lingering alignment issues on yourself instead of a cheap jig.
I used to be a big festfool fan and that faded about six years ago but the domino is definitely king when it comes to joinery in my shop. The dust collection, versatility and precision is unmatched. It is expensive though so there are definitely other ways to do it but they don’t compare.
I agree in every single thing you have said, even down to the 6 years. Still the best industrial design by a million miles but the build quality and issues with there products has become ridiculously bad. Cords shorting out, sanding pads disintegrating, arbor not aligned on power saw, rotex sander melting down ten minutes from new. I could go on…..
Exactly. The tools I bought 10-15 years ago were indeed the best you could buy. They started making parts in China, tried to bank on their quality name and wound up throwing their reputation in the trash. My ridiculously expensive CT36ac vac just had the electronic module replaced again for the 2nd time after frying with very little use. I used to get things repaired all the time for free when they are out of warrantee. That ship has sailed with the new corporate suits that have taken over.
Fascinating. Really interesting how strong dowels are. On the other hand I made a bed where the headboard was attached to the legs with a long line of dowels, and my daughter dragging it across the room wracked out of square, hit a snag from a high floor board, and snapped every darn one! That would be a stress in a very different direction. Of course I have no idea if any of the other methods here would have done any better. At least it was something I could repair vs blowing out the leg or headboard. It would be interesting to see the strength against a traditional mortise and tenon joint. I am just a hobbyist so time is not too important, so I have gone to mostly traditional joints for fine furniture.
63yo retired mechanical engineer/novice woodworker here. Bravo Scott, excellent balance of depth and breadth of subject. I especially appreciate your disclaimers on the limits of your approach including your treatment of the data.
Great vid. While I think the general conclusion on strength of biscuits is correct, I do think your biscuit joiner and brand of biscuits may be much like the crappy dowel jigs. I use a Lamello joiner with their biscuits for table tops and they are a very tight fit. I have to be careful to get them in immediately after any moisture contacts the biscuits or they have to be pounded in. They absolutely do their job for aligning boards flush. For reference, I have used all the systems shown and have no bias. Each has their place.
That is a good point on the Lamello. I had one of those when they first came out and really loved it. I sold it when I moved and have regretted it ever since... Bought a new b jointer recently and was underwhelmed. It too is collecting dust.. Never would have thought the dowels would be so strong...may try out the system...Great video... very informative and raises the level of thinking, which I appreciate greatly!
We use Lamellos for most joinery purposes at the cabinet shop I work at. Definitely no comparison to the biscuit joiners you can buy from the big box store brands.
Love the commitment to the hard stop at the end! :) And I would like a domino but can never justify the cost as a DIY'er. So I have the dowelmax jig. LOVE it. And yeah, I've never really used the biscuit joiner much. The only use would be a narrow piece that needed to be jointed. Where a dowel is just too thick. But then again, I've never had to joint a 1/2" stock for strength so..... it's a made up scenario (for me). As usual, great video. Thanks for taking the time to do it five times. Better you than me. LOL
I would look up making a domino jig if I were you. You can use a rotary tool to do the same job, and other tools you probably already have to create the dominos.
@@nharber9837 Honestly, the dowelmax works so well that I don't find the need to make one. If the price dropped to $240 or so, I would for sure grab it. But I guess I have to wait for the patent to expire.
Thanks for the test ... very informative !
After using a Lamello biscuit joiner for years we finally got a domino. Love it. The ability to make our own dominoes to exact dimension is the game changer.
Under dunn put his biscuit cutter on some stones and thinned it out so the biscuits fit tight and had great success. The problem with biscuits is the biscuit is to loose and glue needs a tight fit. So his solution is really good.
Just don't follow his videos for anything safety related. He is very entertaining though.
@@ssgLunchbox hes pretty clear when he does things unsafe. We all technically do unsafe things daily. Its managing risks and being aware of it.
I like the biscuit joiner for assembling the corners of door and window casing. It's not fast, but those joints are not likely to ever open.
Love the comparison, I'm not a woodworker, but I do a lot of DIY projects and work around the house. I use biscuit joints for putting together door/window casings and ensure that they're aligned at the ends. None of the other options would work as they require thicker material.
There are very thin dominos.
I use biscuits when gluing up a workpiece where both sides will show. Tabletops, hinged bench/box lids, etc. They don’t add much strength but keep things aligned during glue-up, which is worth it to me. You’ve gotten me interested in dowels for some applications tho. Thanks.
Good video and worth watching. Perspective is pretty good as well. I do think a bit more highly of the biscuit joiner than do you, but only a bit. It can actually be rather nice for putting splines in miter joints. I also think a bit more highly of the Domino. One of the nice things about the Domino is its ability to do angles. Set-up for putting a Domino into some 45° joints joints is pretty fast and simple whereas trying to do that with a doweling jig is considerably more of a bother (although the DowelMax system helps quite a bit). Multiple demonstrations have suggested the dowel joinery is stronger but, of course, that isn't always the most important thing. Because I largely agree with you regarding the dowels for a lot of joints, I got the Jessem doweling jig and I also use spiral grooved dowels. But the speed and precision with which the Festool Domino can be used is (IMHO) why it is so popular.
Good comparisons, Scott. The pocket hole system is certainly an easy start for most intrepid woodworkers. The dowels really do shine and I have been using them for years, as opposed to my biscuit joiner, which is collecting dust in the cabinet. As for the Domino, well, it's cool and all, but it's a Festool and OMG, that cost! I was pricing out a couple of Festool tools and realized I can get a pretty nice cabinet saw for the price of one of their dust collectors and one hand tool! You're "right on the money" here.
Festool are commercial grade systems that a shop can use. A hobbyist that wants high output could use one as well.
I use biscuits for sheet goods and they work great for that. On my workbench, I used large wedged M&T joints that have lasted 20 years and about 10,000 miles shipping fully loaded. It was fun to make them and I like looking at them now.
I only use biscuits on wider joints and I find them far far faster than even pocket screws. Plus with 20 years experience and 40 pieces of furniture and lamps. I’ve never had a biscuit fail in real world use.
I'm looking at building a custom desk for myself. I've built some things, but never anything like that. I was fortunate enough to come across someone selling their stock of live edge slabs at basically firewood prices (two ash slabs, little over 9 ft long, 2.5 inches deep and about 1.5 ft wide for $20/slab) and was trying to figure out the best way to join them together and this helped so much. I'm definitely going to pay the extra and go with dowels. I want something that will last me for a long time
When joining slabs the glue is more than enough. Biscuets is nice to use for alignment, but it does not affect strength. It’s when joining endwood to something you need special joinery.
The big plus of biscuits is alignment in glueups, like big MDF pieces of furniture, where you are in a hurry to get things together before the glue dries. I basically never used the biscuit machine with that flap down. Push the pieces against a flat surface (your working table) and make sure you machine each part from the right side. It's very effective when you get used to it. The sideways slack might be a downside, but also a upside. If you are precise enough when using the biscuit machine you can get perfectly alligned when glueing up. I really can't see pocket holes being even close to as effective as biscuits.
Problem don't ever be in a hurry that in itself is the major problem be procise
@@patrickarchuleta9594 The occational slightly stressful 10 minutes might be unavoidable in big glue ups. I worked with furniture making a few years, and big custom glue ups were quite common. Being two persons, planning well, and being a little creative worked well. We're typically talking MDF that was sent to painting afterwards. We could conseal minor faults as long as the glue up was tight and proper, and all alignments/angles were correct. Making those big pieces of furniture in more sections could mean visible seams, more work when installing the furniture or even possibly mismatches. If your customer wants a big shiny block without seams a big glue up is the natural choice, and biscuits is a nice tool during the process.
@@patrickarchuleta9594 i know this channel/video is for hobbyists, but in a professional environement, being in a hurrry means making money. The workshop I work in currently uses mostly dominos for glueups (and clamex for quick on site instalation), and the artisan therre will biscuit a whole piece of furniture in less than 10 minutes with around 20 biscuits. And yeah they're great for glueups, you just eyeball the allignmennt and then allign it after the glue makes contact.
You have to be in hurry in large glue ups, due to glue drying@@patrickarchuleta9594
I built my router table that way; it worked great.
Agree w/ you 100% about dowels (and specifically the Dowelmax -- been using it for years, and the precision/flexibility is remarkable). However, I wouldn't say throw out that biscuit joiner right away. It's a relatively cheap power tool, and works great for Z-clips (my preferred method of attaching table/bench tops), and mobile slotting. Great video... always informative and entertaining.
Without glue screws are reversible and with or without glue you don't have to wait for glue to dry, which I think helps with their popularity on TV and KZhead. As people have figured out with particle board furniture from box stores, they're fine.
Thanks Scott, good video It would've been interesting to add a traditional mortise and tenon joint to the comparison
Nice comparison video, a lot of good information for the newer to intermediate woodworker. Over the last 45 or so years I've used each of those joinery methods (and a few more) and the issues you pointed out for each was spot on. The only thing I would have added is alignment. With pocket screws, to get good alignment you need to clamp the joint heavily or the force of the screws seating will pull the wood out of alignment. Biscuit joints tend to wander top to bottom because of the loose fit of the biscuit. Dowels, as you pointed out, all depend on the jig you have. Dominos are my favorite for sure, despite the cost of the machine. Alignment never seems a problem with them due to the accuracy of the mortise placement (for that much $ they better be more accurate) and the snug fit of the domino. I used them recently to join the mitered corners of my kitchen butcher block counter tops. They slid right in smooth as silk, and the surface alignment was perfect, better than any other joinery method I've used. Thanks again for the video, these are always great to watch
You mitred the end of butcher block? Big no-no! Now the butcher block will crack, since it will move with humidity and the ends will try (unsuccessfully) to prevent it.
@@jeremygibbens7392 mitered but not glued at the ends. Should be able to move just fine. In place over two years with no issues
I love exposed dowels! The sight that immediately shows that the boards are firmly mounted together.
An interesting product relating to biscuits is the Lamello joint system. They have a range of inserts that fit the standard biscuit cut, including a 2 piece lockable joint allowing for joints to be taken apart and rebuilt . We use them frequently in boat building ,for cabinetry.
My grandpa and my dad were professionnal woodworkers and as a kid i saw them using a TONS of dowels. When i decided to built my own furniture 10 years ago, i didn't want to use it because " yerk ...dowels are too old fashion, you're not at Ikea here, tenons and mortises are so much fancy...bla bla bla" Now i realise how i was wrong and how verstatile, easy and strong the dowels are! I think this the best compromise as wood joining. Here in France i don't know if somebody uses pocket screws, it seems to be more a north american method
Dowels require alignment and that can be time consuming as just fraction out and nothing will align.
Pocket screws are a horrible method to joint timber, dowels are rapidly becoming something of a trade secret. 30 years experience has shown me that dowels are cheap, accurate, strong and above all flexibility of use is unparalleled.
Right off the hop. The very first test on the biscuit joint fail on the grain of the wood NOT the biscuit joint it self like the pocket hole joint. If you tried it again where the grain of wood traveled further down the board I’m sure it would have tested much better. Just a note as well. When doing biscuit joints, they are designed for carpenter glue for swelling,as you mentioned but not for polyurethane glues. So many inconsistencies in wood can really flaw tests. Great video and keep ‘‘em coming. 👍🏻
I built Adirondack chairs out of ipe using dowels. Outside in full weather, south Florida, lasted years Before the dowels actually rotted away. Easy to fix. Redrill and replace. Also build a fence out of ipe and dowels. 10 years and going strong, zero sag with nothing but hinges holding it up. Dowels are strong and easy to use.
I love those kind of clips - YT wouldn‘t be so cool without those clips! Mate, thanks a lot for this!
Would be interested in a comparison to a conventional mortise and tenon joint. I built a small dresser using hand-drilled dowels (no jig, just lots of planing) in 1995, and it's still going strong. But great video, and great to see T-dot represented on the you tubes.
Would be interested what you think of the Mafell doweler?
Nice comparison - you should work with Matthias Wandel and his test rigs. I've used dowels for years and they work very well. You can also make your own floating tenon stock using a bullnose router bit and some small scrap boards.
Good information. I've always used biscuits just for alignment never for strength but honestly haven't used them in years. I prefer traditional jointery myself, but I dont really care if my daughter wants my crap or not, I just like the look of hand cut dovetails and knowing that I took the time for regular mortise and tendon. I do laugh when I see new KZheadrs with festool domino jigs and track saws but no jointer or planer.
The Domino is amazing IMHO. That said, Castle USA makes a pocket joinery tool and torx screws that change the game in pocket hole joinery. Before I got the Castle 110, I loathed pocket joinery, but now I love it! These are both my go to choices. I do occasionally use dowles with the Jessem jig when I feel the Domino is too bulky or awkward.
The castle 110 pocket cutting tool definitely looks solid and unique!!
The furniture passed down from my grandparents to my parents is from my grand-grandparents or older. So we talk about 1850-1900. Those are gorgeous. I hope that they one day are passed down to me and I would be really sad if they don't last. That said, I don't think that anyone wants the furniture I build in a hundred years.
I've built 4'X8' carriage doors for the garage using something called 'Beadlock'. Beadlock uses a modified doweling jig and ready-made tenon stock that has more surface area than the 'domino' but is considerably cheaper. The system is not as fast as the Festool, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper. The carriage doors I build 20 years ago have held up without a problem.
Great video! I’ve seen the same concept several times but never presented as well. Thank you!
The dowels had higher strength because the bending force generated by your testing rig translates to tension on the bottom of the joint and the dowels are closer to the edge which makes a larger lever arm and a lower tension force for the same bending moment. In other words it creates a stronger joint in bending because the dowel is closer to the edge than the domino. Also you should check out Jessem's new domino tool, it is a fraction of the Festool and uses your cordless drill to make the holes.
Nice catch! dowels still suprisingly great tho
Solid point, also because the load is carried "sequentially" by each dowel rather than spread across them equally, so to they fail in "zipper mode" rather than all at once. Which might actually be an argument for why testing 4 dowels instead of 2 may not be a big deal, since you're (kinda) only testing them one at a time. Scott did acknowledge that it would be impractical to test a full variety of joint types and configurations -- it's always hard to give a simple answer to a complex question -- breaking that joint in the direction perpendicular to the one chosen might have been more illustrative.
I agree and disagree but I am not in a position yet to make a verifiable test but my scenario for testing would involve robots which places the test setup outside of what most people would consider a reasonable investment vs. return but is where I will be headed in my pursuits of a fully robotic factory so such tests could provide a little bit of income via internet presentations along my way . Yes a long shot I have considered via business math and my multidisciplinary skill-sets .
I agree that the dowel and domino comparison is not entirely fair. To me, it would seem more reasonable to use dowels nearly the same diameter as the domino thickness (not 50% greater) and to place them (still two dowels per domino) with at least the end dowels of the row matching the ends of the dominoes.
@@Zambonick I don't think that wood is flexible enough for the row of dowels to peel apart like a zipper.
I have used all of these methods. The biscuits the most. Now I use a Domino most often. I can tell you in 25 years of woodworking I have never had a properly done joint fail. It doesn’t matter which method as long as it is tight fitting and not glue starved. All that said I have observed lots of factory furniture with failed dowel joints.
I would argue that it's the proper application of the glue that makes all your joints work. Biscuits, dowels, and dominos are more for alignment, or for folks who don't use enough glue.
Great video! Man you took so much into consideration. I agree with you on the Dowelmax. It is an excellent highly precision tool that is extremely accurate. Don't waste time and money on all those budget doweling jigs. They don't last, and worse the fit is usually off when you join the pieces of wood. If you are no great hurry (like me) to build something of quality, this is the way to go as far as joints go. What is also cool is that you can make your own dowels very simply by drilling a hole in a piece of metal that is the same size of the dowel you need. Plenty of tutorials on how to do that.
I haven't pulled my biscuit joiner out in probably 10 years. I use pocket holes, half laps or mortise and tenon occasionally, but mostly I use dowels. My preferred jig is the JessEm but the Dowel Max is excellent as well.
Hi Scott. Thanks for the video. Your triangle is a visual representation of what a friend of mine that was a fine guitar maker (he's retired) was telling me: if you want something done, you have to chose 2 out of these 3 requirements, the last one will most likely be neglected: well built - fast built - cheap. Keep it up! EDIT: also I have a very good dowel jig, and it really is a great tool. Unless I drastically change my way of woodworking (currently: hobbyist), it's going to be more than enough for the rest of my career.
In "cost Plus" construction jobs, we usually tell the customer there are 3 variables - Quick Delivery, High Quality and Low Cost - PICK ANY 2.
The old "good, fast, cheap -- pick two" maxim@@allenmgrayson
I like doing mortise and tenon joints or dovetails on just about anything that's either visible or gets any proper use because I both like to make my projects look non-bulky so their thin structures need that extra strength often and just because I'm extra like that. If I really can't be bothered, it's "just" a box joint. This mind set of course takes the most amount of time possible as I haven't yet built jigs for any of these. But sometimes it would be nice to just get things done without a huge time investment. So I went and bought the Domino as it was on quite a considerable sale and I'm in the fortunate position to disregard the cost anyway. It's just a damn well thought out tool. But man is Festool the Apple of woodworking with it's high prices and they even have a practice in place that the tool itself can't be on any sales anywhere, only bundles of the tool can (or so I've heard). If it wasn't priced so high and had competition (still under patent protection), I'd sing it's high praises. But as it is, I'm always happy to see stronger/cheaper proper alternatives.
I'm super lucky to be in a furniture shop where we use a lot of Festool products. One of the things people don't mention about them often, because it doesn't happen often, is their customer support and warranty. My boss runs two 6" Rotex sanders, and when one of them failed for a reason we weren't able to diagnose ourselves, the speed they were able to get it repaired and back to us was very impressive. I have no idea whether it cost him anything, but he was very happy with how they handled it and told me that's one of the reasons he went Festool.
Good video! I think your conclusion definitely holds water, the average weekend warrior with a limited budget shouldn't feel the pressure to get a Domino. They're great, but you can get the exact same results and save a ton of cash with dowels. Production speed for us isn't the issue it is for folks that are selling pieces every day.
Enjoyed fast pace and info, thanks! BTW you either need fewer drills or a larger back wall.
Two affordable options that weren't covered: the Rockler Beadlock system, which is a fancied-up dowel jig that makes space for a version of the domino, and the Tianli router jig that cuts domino-style mortises. Both about 1/5 the price of the Festool.
@user-wi9ne9pf2n Thanks, but your obvious scam doesn't interest me.
I own two biscuit joiners and I've never experienced a loose fitting biscuit. If anything they're a little tight. Biscuits are much faster than dominos, because there's side to side play you can go pretty fast (if you're using biscuits odds are you're using a a bunch) and it's no big deal if you're not right on the mark. They really shine when putting long butt joints together, especially if you want to put all four sides together at once and/or adding a divider without the joinery showing. Not only are they fast but they create a standoff and your pieces drop right into place without have to slide them around smearing glue lining up the sides like you do with pocket holes. Dominos need accuracy especially if you don't set it up on the looser settings and are more expensive. You better be super accurate with dowels as well. I'd be curious to see how much stronger those other options are when you are making 90 deg butt joints with plywood and depth is limited. In that face frame application you show I use pocket holes (a Kreg Foreman is really fast), biscuits are for casework and dowels and dominos are for narrow pieces or when strength is a concern. They all have their place.
I have 3 of the 4 systems. I started with the domino, then the pocket screw jig, then the Dowelmax. I find all three systems have quirks and all are finicky to use. I use dominos the most mainly for alignment purposes. But it has taken several hundred uses to get really good and fast with the thing. The most finicky jig for me is the Dowelmax. Alignment is super critical and I find the jig wiggles out of alignment very easily. Once you set up the Domino jig it is rock solid and you just have to line up the marks and go. Also the ability to make tight versus loose fitting mortises is really useful. thanks for the comparison.
LOL. Not to mention the knurled knobs on the dowelmax will make your finger tips raw after a couple dozen uses.
hello, your work is really interesting, I particularly like your approach to the single topic, obviously I congratulate you for the way you set up this video, well done, excellent work
First I am a hobby woodworker. I just took a walk around my house and shop. Checked the joints on things I made over the years going back 25 years or so. Nothing has had a failure. Regardless of the joinery. I don’t have a Festool Domino but the rest of the methods here and other more traditional joinery have been used. What I think is important is do what you feel like doing. Most things, for strength alone could be a glued butt joint. Things like drawer fronts, table lower stringers, or chairs that can take a ton of abuse over the years have to have more consideration. Racking is more a problem then brute force. I butt joint will fail faster from back and forth motion that one made with dowels or dominoes. Are splined picture frames stronger? Yep, but do they need to be? It depends on what is inside the frame I suppose. I like videos like this because if and when strength is needed then I have an idea of what to do.
Well said!
Would have been interesting to see how pocket hole strength would have been affected if you used 4 or even 3 vs the 2 you used. Wonder how this would have compared to the 4 dowels used. Also, there are some pocket hole jigs that have a shallower approach angle than "craig" which would allow a longer screw to be used, which would change the dynamics of the joint. And as others have aluded to in the comments, biscuits were originally developed to provide alignment to a standard edge to edge board glue up. They were later applied to joints to help with alignment. Not sure they were ever intended to reinforce the joint. Would have been interesting to see how the jointnwould have faired if you doubled the biscuits up by stacking them in the joint. Finally from a physics or "statics" perspective in joint strength, the location of the hole for whatever method you plan to use, will have different effects on the joint strength. The hole closest to the inside corner sees its greatest stress in the form of tension. The hole farthest probably sees its greatest stress in the form of a bending moment. Each method of joining the two pieces of wood has an advantage. The domino probably has the greatest ability for strength when a bending moment is involved because of the width of the domino. And the greatest glued surface probably has the greatest strength in tension. So a hybrid joint of dowels and a domino might do well assuming all other things remained equal. However, 4 pocket hole screws might be up there too.
I generally buy hardwood dowels and leave them exposed or use them to fill pocket holes on items I make for the garage or exterior projects such as my fence. They look great and are super cheap. My doweling jig was $15, is fast to adjust, and has done very well for almost every application.
Great video! I have the doweling jig tool from grizzly. It’s $100 and looks like a biscuit joiner or domino, but notches out two dowel holes. Love it
My introduction to furniture building was in the early 70’s. I didn’t have the knowledge or machinery to assemble joints on my early pieces. I also didn’t have money to buy other options, so I bought a self-centering dowel jig & used it until it wore out. Even though I’m many generations from those early days, I still go back to dowel joinery. I do lots of mortise & tenon joints and biscuit joins when appropriate. I don’t have and never will have the Festool, way overpriced! Thanks for the good review
Engineers gotta validate the money they spent on their degree by reinventing things that our forefathers already perfected. I'll take a vintage tool I can use all my life and pass on to my grandchildren over the latest bells and whistle crap that will be in a landfill in 5 years.
Understanding that it is probably overkill compared to these other joining methods, I prefer the traditional mortise and tenon joint. Yeah it is less efficient timewise and easier to mess up but I just like them and the satisfaction they give me. I also like the look of dovetails and box joints and use these a lot too. Yeah I know I am a joinerysaurus but I like puttering around my shop and am rarely under any deadline so I just do what I like.
Right there with you! If I want to put something together fast I'll use the pocket holes. I will use dowels for gluing panels up, but I love the old-school work for nicer pieces. Not a pro making deadlines, just enjoying myself on weekends.
I made my own hardwood biscuits being aware of grain orientation because I always end up with a lot of hardwood cutoffs around biscuit thickness. . It's basically taking the place of a T&G joint, or the next best thing to a mortise and tenon and certainly better than butting end grains.
To this series of tests, I would add testing a joint made with no fasteners whatsoever, simply an end grain to long grain joint. This type of joint is surprisingly stronger than most people think. Would be curious to see how it stacks up.
I see festool as the apple of the woodworking world. It's more expensive, but it's also very well refined. It's doing what many other tools do for cheaper, but what it does, it's meant to do it very well.
Good analogy!
So we should expect them to keep putting out new versions twice a year with minuscule variations and lots of features that nobody asked for or wants?
Pocket screws are hands-down the ONLY choice if you only have one choice, they completely revolutionized woodworking when they came on the scene. Biscuits are great for panel joinery and joints that have to be invisible from both sides. Dowels are strong, but novices have a lot of trouble lining them up, and I have to admit in my 40-someodd career in woodworking I have had some misaligned dowels too. The Domino is great for some limited applications that involve larger scale, for example they are wonderful for making doors. The really small dominos on the other hand don't do much for you, except maybe amortize the cost of the too-expensive machine. In terms of what you will use most in practical application, they go in thew order I listed them. If you have nothing and want to know which to buy first, it's pocket screws and jigs hands-down. Low cost and will make face frames an absolute breeze.
Domino provides the flexibility of biscuit joints with near the strength of a dowel. I use all of the methods in the video as they all have their place.
Agree with everything you have said. Domino's seem like the guess jeans of woodworking - you aren't one of the cool kids if you don't have a domino.
they've been on the scene for centuries fwiw
My cabinet company (I’m a dealer) has been in business since 1965. Until a few years ago, the face frames were assembled using mortise and tenon joinery. They made the switch to pocket screws. Made no difference on the strength of the assembled cabinet. In fact, I am impressed by how strong the joint is.
Funny, I live in the old town of Bern. The permanently installed cupboards are now 350 years old. In the living room there is a screwless display case that has been in our family for 150 years. I renovated my grandparents' former closet and it is now the focal point of our living room (also because all the alcoholic beverages are stored in it). In the workshop of my father, who is over 80, his grandfather's wooden workbench is still in use (well, we don't have termites in Switzerland). The welding table in my father's metal shop is also 80 years old and was built by his father and uncle. In short, yes, I enjoy doing this with quality furniture that has been in the business for generations. Apart from that: a very interesting video.
Just found your channel and I love it! Keep up the GREAT work!
Pocket screws are actually surprisingly strong. Most tests show they fail just before wood around the joints, which in my opinion is the preferred mode of failure. It's much easier to fix a ripped out screw than a broken piece around a domino. I think dowels in gangs are also just as good as dominos. You need a good jig like JesseEm, but they work exceptionally well, and much cheaper. Freud makes great dual doweler for fast joineries, but they are no longer made as far as I know. You can usually buy one online cheap.