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Why .NET's Most Ambitious Feature Might Fail

Nick Chapsas
2024 ж. 6 Ақп.
37 694 Рет қаралды
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Hello, everybody, I'm Nick, and in this video, I will address some of the feedback of .NET Aspire. It's been 2 months since the release of the first preview, and Microsoft has been hard at work, so let's see where Aspire is going and if it has a bright future ahead of it.
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Пікірлер

  • Hello 2029, please let me know if my prediction was right or wrong :)

    @GackFinder@GackFinder3 ай бұрын

    • May be

      @sohampatel1063@sohampatel10633 ай бұрын

    • Hello from 2129. I can confirm that Aspire, .Net and Microsoft no longer exist. Of more concern as a Human v1.0 I have a deprecated feature flag implanted in my skull.

      @flibbertigibbet6324@flibbertigibbet63243 ай бұрын

    • ok

      @gofudgeyourselves9024@gofudgeyourselves90243 ай бұрын

    • 2029: Microsoft NewSprite has been discontinued. That was the final name for Aspire, after they changed the name 3 times.

      @iandrake4683@iandrake46833 ай бұрын

    • Hello 2029 What a ride the last 5 years have been. Tell me all about it

      @Luke-me9qe@Luke-me9qe3 ай бұрын

  • They don't put David Fowler in charge of something that is going to die soon. Take SignalR as an example.

    @MiladPP@MiladPP3 ай бұрын

  • I feel ike if you are starting projects so frequently that just setting up the boilerplate of your dependencies is such a significant amount of your total workload that you need a tool to solve it for you you are either starting WAAY too many projects that you are probably never going to finish ever or you are an educator who has to go through the first steps constantly. I don't think the problem aspire is solving needs such a sophisticated solution. If you don't understand what is going on under the hood of your dependencies and you need something like aspire to get things to work and to deployment at all then you should probably learn this stuff instead of relying on a way too specialized and brittle tool like this.

    @lexer_@lexer_3 ай бұрын

    • I think Digital Agencies and Product Studios might fall into that group that create lots of projects.

      @Hades200082@Hades2000822 ай бұрын

  • Awesome. We just implemented Aspire in our whole stack :)

    @VitorSubs@VitorSubs3 ай бұрын

  • I do not use Aspire because I can’t see usecase. How would I use it? If it’s about orchestration, does it replace kubernetes? If it’s only for local tests - why do I need it? There many better and simpler ways to test something in dev environment

    @caunt.official@caunt.official3 ай бұрын

  • Great content as usual Nick, but I can't help but wonder whether you had a bet with someone to get the phrase 'tie-dye' into a video :)

    @dodgydarryl@dodgydarryl3 ай бұрын

    • 🌚

      @nickchapsas@nickchapsas3 ай бұрын

    • @@nickchapsas you really missed out on the opportunity to wear your tie dye hoody.

      @helloarchy@helloarchy3 ай бұрын

  • I mostly don't understand why you'd use this over docker compose for a local environment. It seems to have most of the benefit without locking you to certain tech.

    @IronDoctorChris@IronDoctorChris3 ай бұрын

    • Cause debugging .NET in docker is a pain and Aspire safes you a lot of bootstrapping in .NET where you don't have to handle secrets and environment variables yourself.

      @WolfspiritMagic@WolfspiritMagic3 ай бұрын

    • Docker compose requires you to build container images and to run apps inside of containers. With aspire it seems you don't.

      @jfpinero@jfpinero3 ай бұрын

  • What I like with Aspire is that it's not a completely new tech, just a way to bootstrap existing things easier. You just safe a lot of bootstrapping code in your Program.cs. If aspire at some point "dies" you can just bootstrap the stuff the same way yourself like you'd do today and keep the rest of the code the same (except for maybe the service discovery). The services, controllers and everything will pretty much look the same as they do without aspire.

    @WolfspiritMagic@WolfspiritMagic3 ай бұрын

  • I have used both Dapr and Aspire and like both. I think the longterm future will require a merger of the best features of both solutions. I feel the current configuration-in-code API of Aspire is a bit fragmented and leads to programming user errors, my preference would be for the prescriptive design thinking of the Dapr sidecar to be moved in-process in an Aspire+ application.

    @flibbertigibbet6324@flibbertigibbet63243 ай бұрын

    • I'd love to learn more about what you mean by this.

      @davidfowl@davidfowl3 ай бұрын

  • Currently working on a large distributed api, which mainly uses .NET of course, but also heavily relies on tools and services running in python and Matlab. For this, we do use .NET Aspire, and the experience so far has been great. The project is due to complete in 2 years, so the preview versions are good right now.

    @luuk777w@luuk777w3 ай бұрын

    • Matlab, damn, i hope all project files are structured well from the start

      @creo_one@creo_one3 ай бұрын

    • I would love to hear more about this project!

      @davidfowl@davidfowl2 ай бұрын

    • @@davidfowl I'd love to tell you! How do I get in touch?

      @luuk777w@luuk777w2 ай бұрын

  • After experimenting with Preview 1, my TLDR is that it offered a subpar development experience. Node integration was particularly problematic, and the lack of control, even with the SDK, made viewing it as a productivity tool challenging. The disparate components didn't seamlessly integrate, leading to a frustrating cycle of adjusting when support for one package dropped. Establishing stronger cross-language standards is crucial for sustaining tools like this. Even now I feel it does way too much and I'm very curious how this will integrate with technologies such as Orleans in the future. Overall, I really like the project but the development philosophy needs to change...

    @jensingels5958@jensingels59583 ай бұрын

    • Preview 1 was rough, but it’s so much better already!

      @davidfowl@davidfowl3 ай бұрын

  • Imo all MS needs to do is unify blazor/maui/winform and continue improve server side/wasm/hybrid

    @JosephSaintClair@JosephSaintClair3 ай бұрын

    • Avalonia xaml like rendering (skia) + blazor + Maui would be ideal. Avalonia's cross-platform WPF engine would be a good place for MS to start.

      @iandrake4683@iandrake46833 ай бұрын

  • I say, let's try. if it fails or transforms to something else, we can either get more cynical or learn more. I love these type of ideas that involve many moving pieces!

    @paulsanchez5030@paulsanchez50303 ай бұрын

  • Third

    @nickchapsas@nickchapsas3 ай бұрын

  • The aspire components looks like test containers to me a bit. The problem is by using only nuget you limit your project to only dotnet stack. I think most companies use more than a single stack these days, if you want things like this to succeed you need to support multiple stacks imo

    @joeldickson5471@joeldickson54713 ай бұрын

  • Did project Tye die? Or was the experiment the inspiration for Aspire?

    @StevenTCramer@StevenTCramer3 ай бұрын

  • I'm still not sure how does this play in multi-microservices environments where databases(+kafka, caches), gateways, load balancers are managed by a dedicated team, there are 200+ microservices each with its owner, lifecycle, CI pipeline and git repo. I mean, I used it for a POC project and it was nice, but I don't see how Aspire really brings me value. As long as microsoft fails to tell the actual "this is how it brings you value" story, I fail to see how it succeeds even if there are 100000 packages supporting it

    @nocgod@nocgod3 ай бұрын

    • Agreed. Have yet to hear a convincing answer to this question

      @MrGTFOplz@MrGTFOplz3 ай бұрын

    • I don't think that Aspire can help in these 1st generation Microservicex200 Swamp scenarios. Aspire gives technical architects the toolset to avoid recreating such a situation by identifying clusters of microservices and cloud resources that constitute a distributed application.

      @flibbertigibbet6324@flibbertigibbet63243 ай бұрын

    • @@flibbertigibbet6324 but that's not how things are in real enterprise solutions. You have domain services that handle stuff like account data, account credentials, data scheme per tenant, communication templates, mfa services risk assessment services, consent management services, ETL services, API adapter services. After those you have various business facilitating services, back office services, secondary systems like webhooks, client changle log, log shipping forwarders... Systems that are older than 1 day and actually work in production with real paying customers always look like shit, messy and hard to follow. They always have old code with new code, old frameworks with new frameworks. Aspire just doesn't answer the real life scenarios of enterprise solutions in production

      @nocgod@nocgod3 ай бұрын

    • @@flibbertigibbet6324 this response was beautiful

      @davidfowl@davidfowl3 ай бұрын

  • Will you resume the Keep Coding podcast in 2024? I'd absolutely love an episode with ardalis.

    @ovidiufelixb@ovidiufelixb3 ай бұрын

  • Aspire sounds like a MS conference :P

    @samuelschwager@samuelschwager3 ай бұрын

  • the biggest issue with Aspire is that they'll focus so much on making it an Azure service orchestrator they'll end up leaving out components for other cloud services.

    @johnnm3207@johnnm32073 ай бұрын

  • I noticed the shirt change at ~2:06 :)

    @danielsvensson4860@danielsvensson48602 ай бұрын

    • Commercial part 😂

      @stevenj8261@stevenj82612 ай бұрын

  • All the criticisms called out could be applied to anything in NuGet. Yet we all use it, and it all keeps moving forward.

    @umilmi81@umilmi813 ай бұрын

  • Based on David comments changes are being made so aspire can be deployed to production

    @gppproton@gppproton3 ай бұрын

  • I think it will be a native part of dotnet rather than its own product. So the name Aspire will probably die regardless of its success or lack thereof. But the tech could very well become a native thing like Blazor has become. AZD is half the USP of Aspire imo.

    @JohanNordberg@JohanNordberg3 ай бұрын

  • I think one big problem is the profuse use of buzzwords in their communication. It gives a fleeting and perishable impression. Also "...opinionated set of tools" is an incredibly bad pitch.

    @djupstaten2328@djupstaten23283 ай бұрын

  • The conflict of interest between the .NET and Visual Studio teams is so annoying and hurting the .NET open source ecosystem and reputation. Them taking back Hot Reload from the SDK was such a dumpster fire created by the management

    @lisamith@lisamith3 ай бұрын

  • This just has Silverlight written all over it! Also reminds me of the old saying - fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Problem is all frameworks die eventually but when they come from MS for some reason we get the impression they will be supported forever and over invest in them as an industry.

    @JamesGaunt369@JamesGaunt3693 ай бұрын

    • Silverlight was definitely a stop-gap product before the web matured enough that it wasn't needed any more. I did a lot with Silverlight back in the day and it worked, but the web evolved and didn't have a place any more. This may be similar, as the web further evolves.

      @bnm0312@bnm03123 ай бұрын

    • @@bnm0312 I think the same. MS does not kill Silverlight, the web evolution does. Microsoft just turn it "official"

      @ClickOkYT@ClickOkYT3 ай бұрын

    • Microsoft is not at fault for SilverLight fail. You can blame Steve Jobs for that. His "Thought on Flash" started the end of browser plugins like Flash and Silverlight.

      @99MrX99@99MrX993 ай бұрын

  • I can't convince my boss it's worth it over his manual telemetry stuff he's built.

    @SuperLabeled@SuperLabeled3 ай бұрын

  • I'm positive for .NET Aspire, simply because of David Fowler

    @svetoslav.hadzhiivanov@svetoslav.hadzhiivanov3 ай бұрын

  • Discontinued after five years? What do they think this is, a Google product??

    @davew2040x@davew2040x3 ай бұрын

  • Allright let us bring back our .NET devs from Rust first, then we'll talk about Aspire

    @MatinDevs@MatinDevs3 ай бұрын

  • Kubernetes in docker + helm or docker compose. K3D, Kind. Even for local dev it is a matter of seconds to start cluster, deploy helm and we are done. Why MS came with an idea to seed the chaos with yet another half baked alternative nobody asked for? nobody knows. but it is so microsoftish. i'll pass. In order to learn k8s just to gain a dev profficiency level I needed one week. And what I've learnt transaltes very well to the production deployment reality as well. And this wouldn't be the case with Aspire thing.

    @seg3663@seg36633 ай бұрын

  • If you want to keep projects maintained, you should donate. The same issue as always.

    @garcipat@garcipat3 ай бұрын

  • Sometimes I feel like those big companies read my mind. I like tha they put it in such a way to be able to define it in "Program.cs" how things are connected but really besides that and some fancy dashboard its not as much of an improvement as people might claim it to be. The thing is hyped, having a telemetry is great but I can also create one myself probably in a couple of days. I do see the potential but its not there as a tool to make me as a developer interested that much. Still really they readmy mind cause I was literally thinking about those kind of approaches myself.

    @muhamedkarajic@muhamedkarajic3 ай бұрын

  • I think Aspire is a bit late, it should have been release 3 years ago

    @icymaru00yue@icymaru00yue3 ай бұрын

  • 🙂

    @panwar2001@panwar20013 ай бұрын

  • Why not use Service Fabric?

    @dejohnny2@dejohnny23 ай бұрын

  • I like aspire..

    @hassejansson@hassejansson3 ай бұрын

  • i like aspire but hate aspire components crap... tye is still better

    @lextr3110@lextr31102 ай бұрын

  • Mono repository projects are the worst...

    @NearFantastica04@NearFantastica043 ай бұрын

  • Honestly, I think I disagree with Nick here, even if they don't kill it entirely, they will fail to maintain it and fix bugs. Edit: Turns out he mentions that. I made the comment while I was listening (foolishly)

    @FractalWanderer@FractalWanderer3 ай бұрын

  • Silverlight was released and killed.

    @giszTube@giszTube3 ай бұрын

    • And .Net framework is on life support 😅

      @StefanHanrath@StefanHanrath3 ай бұрын

    • And Windows Phone

      @GackFinder@GackFinder3 ай бұрын

    • And BizTalk

      @GackFinder@GackFinder3 ай бұрын

    • yeah, but it survived for 12 years. web frameworks today survive 2 years before the next shiny thing comes. as far as frameworks go, it survived pretty well TBH even if it was crap

      @nocgod@nocgod3 ай бұрын

    • @@StefanHanrath To be fair, at least .NET has an upgrade path.

      @giszTube@giszTube3 ай бұрын

  • Did that internet troll confuse Microsoft and Google projects, maybe? Remember Google Glass? Or Google Stadia? What a hit! 🤣

    @MrOboema@MrOboema3 ай бұрын

    • So if Google does it, it's okay for Microsoft to do it?

      @GackFinder@GackFinder3 ай бұрын

    • @@GackFinder Obiously, because Google bad, Microsoft good. Don't you know? /sarcasm

      @MrOboema@MrOboema3 ай бұрын

  • Even more last

    @DocShotsPhotography@DocShotsPhotography3 ай бұрын

  • If it has an AI in it, it won't. 😂

    @NextProgrammer@NextProgrammer3 ай бұрын

  • Will winui3 be deprecated?

    @gofudgeyourselves9024@gofudgeyourselves90243 ай бұрын

    • WinUI3/WindowsAppSDK is what Maui and Uno use, so I don't think so.

      @albertorodriguez7096@albertorodriguez70963 ай бұрын

    • @@albertorodriguez7096 I don't trust MAUI. A lot of people has raised concern with it

      @gofudgeyourselves9024@gofudgeyourselves90243 ай бұрын

    • Every predecessor to WinUI3 was deprecated, so I think it's a very safe bet WinUI3 will be deprecated as well.

      @GackFinder@GackFinder3 ай бұрын

  • When will maui be abandoned... Lots of bugs

    @ajtandon3679@ajtandon36793 ай бұрын

  • My thoughts? Aspir8 is indeed a terrible name

    @colejohnson66@colejohnson663 ай бұрын

    • What should we call a tool that automates the deployment of an Aspire solution to a K8s environment... I need some help, any ideas?

      @flibbertigibbet6324@flibbertigibbet63243 ай бұрын

  • P r o m o s m

    @jorgbonfert4546@jorgbonfert4546Ай бұрын

  • Fourth

    @phamduong3701@phamduong37013 ай бұрын

  • Second

    @hacinisouleymanboumedyen3881@hacinisouleymanboumedyen38813 ай бұрын

  • Zeroeth

    @stepanstulov9871@stepanstulov98713 ай бұрын

  • First

    @Th3MoL3@Th3MoL33 ай бұрын

  • Last

    @gofudgeyourselves9024@gofudgeyourselves90243 ай бұрын
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