Air Canada 759 Almost Lands on Busy Taxiway | ATC vs Pilots
ATC vs Pilots is a series explaining funny and serious real communication between pilots and air traffic control.
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Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
0:39 - Student Pilot Callsign
5:00 - Kuwaiti JFK
14:20 - Air Canada 759
23:19 - ATIS
Legend has it, the ATC is still asking 956SP if he has the weather information at Gillespie arport
😆😆😆
Affirm.
Haha
And he has started saying "with you".
if pilot tells ATC "allahu Akbar" what will happen?
This cracked me up: ATC, after numerous readbacks withouth a call-sign : “And in the future sir, I don’t mean to give you a hard time, but your read back with your call-sign is mandatory for us”. Pilot: “Will do”. 🙃🙃🙃
"I need you to give me the number on the display." "Ok" "... I need you to tell me what the number on the display is." "Oh! Will do." "... what is the number in the display?" "Wait, you need it right now?" A far too common conversation with my husband.
@@Pallidum my husband rephrases things when I tell him I didn't catch what he said. He obviously assumes I didn't understand what he means. No, I didn't hear the words you said and I want you to repeat them.
@@DemstarAus I have the same experience. Only, he often tries to follow up on what he said instead of just repeating himself.
@@DemstarAus Question, I might be missing something obvious here: If you missed what he said the first time, how do you know he's rephrasing?
Reminds me of the little guy who said " my mommy told me that I'm special. You don't know I'm apecial?!?!!"
The first “ca caw” was funny but the last “ca caw” was hilarious
I know right, it's was so soft the last one haha
CACAW!! “should I? … its not very professional… yeah I’ll do it again. cacaw”
Kelsey's imagery really sold it. Big mean raven for the first one and cute little chick for the second.
@@chrisgames5201 is well k who IIIpp population in
@@chrisgames5201 ooo
My flight instructor, a retired French Airbus engineer, went to the US and rented a plane to travel around with his family. No trouble with ATC until he got to Texas. He just couldn't deal with one of the controller's accent until he exclaimed "SPEEK AERONAUTICAL EENGLEESH PLEEZE!" with a heavy french accent. Everything became clear after that.
Lmao
On my many Atlantic crossings with mac, the military airlift command. . Very amusing conversations between Texas and the Britts. Almost as good as Italians "Mac I tell you now. You no pull up you gonna bust you ass
The French never got over that french wasn't the international aviation langauge. A Riyadh local answered the question, yes you could learn arabic, but you would speak with a very bad accent
@@Gator141a I've got news for you, French IS one of the international aviation languages. Not in Anglo countries, but in one of the many French speaking countries, they speak French.
Including CDG.
Kelsey is a great pilot. He's skilled, knowledgeable and his head is extremely aerodynamic - reducing drag and increasing fuel efficiency.
he is a co-pilot not a REAL pilot
@@roccoVAL do you realize first officers(the rank Kelsey is) Flyes the plane too right? Most airlines they take turns between captian and first officer of who takes off and who lands.
@@CatBot007 of course I know this but he's still not a pilot he's a co-pilot why is this hard for you to understand
@@roccoVAL co-pilot technically isn’t a thing. He is a pilot who happens to also be a first officer.
@@dillanagarwalla6100 he's a FO he is not a CAPTAIN.....are you happy now?? He is still ONLY a first officer!
People think ATC are being picky... until something goes wrong, then they’ll be “ATC didn’t follow procedures”.
Exactly. I don’t blame them for being picky. If they had all those lives in their hands, I’d bet most people would be that picky too!
I was working for EMS when a emergency call went out to one of our ambulances and our dispatcher heard them say 10-4. However they didn't include their call sign. In about 10 minutes the dispatcher asked their location, no response. They were still at the ems building clueless they were supposed to be going on a call. The person died. It was a mess. There were lawsuits.
Agree, if one works in position where mistakes can lead to loosing lives - one should follow rules to the letter. IMO even simple mistakes like not using call sign can lead to disasters. What if wrong airplane responds? ATC should never accept response as correct even if voice sounds familiar. Otherwise its just encouraging bad habits.
THAT IS THE POINT!!!
Trudat.
The Wikipedia page on this Air Canada incident is worth reading!!! A retired pilot stated the runway confusion that almost happened "probably came close to the greatest aviation disaster in history" as five airplanes and potentially over 1,000 passengers were at imminent risk. The incident was not considered reportable under current federal regulations,[21] but former NTSB chairman Jim Hall called it "the most significant near-miss we've had in this decade" and urged the NTSB to re-evaluate those reporting requirements.
Wow, thank you!
I was an ATC for 14 years and Kelsey is spot on with both the pilot and ATC perspective.
It would be cool if you could interview an air traffic controller. Maybe he could talk about what pisses him off the most.
That would be a fire video 🔥
yes luca
Yessssssss
Speaking as an air traffic controller, not much pisses me off! You couldn’t last in this job long if you got upset too much. I think making errors myself is the most annoying thing! Bad radio technique is a poor habit that I notice some pilots have. That can be annoying and potentially dangerous.
@@bsmith1164 well yes, and this guy here is a great example of the absolute worst. I guess they will give anybody a pilot's license these days.
That Air Canada incident gives me chills every time. Imagine being on one of these flights and later finding out you almost died.
ya I also wonder what they told the passengers of why they did a go around.
Happens.
@@74gear as a Canadian I can assure you they told the truth, that some Delta pilot was in their way. 😉
Shouldn't. And only because you'd lose your mind if you knew every time something like this (not necessarily tied to aviation) happened to (the proverbial) you. IMO, live life now, love those you're close to, hate those you can, and just strive to be the best you can be, because things like these, in the grand scheme, really don't count.
@@74gear something similar happened at OHare and no, they didn’t say a word about why they had to go around.
The key with Air Canada is one of the runways had the lights off, so they saw 2 long lines of lights, the one runway and the taxiway. I'm surprised there is no alarm that they were not lined up for the right place.
But isn't the taxiway light color different than the runway light color?
@@AdamGbl95 yeah and it’s obvious the difference between the two. There’s different distance between the lights, runway lights are often brighter etc. it should be easy to see the difference.
This also evidences that the tower controller did not monitor the PRM. Had he, he'd seen that the aircraft was headed for the twy
Runway lights aside, how in god's name did no one in the cockpit notice 4 giant airliners directly below (no major airport is that dark, even at night)
@@GK-yi4xv As with every incident and near-incident, there are several things leading to the incident. NTSB concluded that; 1. Since RAAS was not installed on the ACA airplane, the pilots had no audible cue that they were not aligned with the runway. 2. The tower controllers did not have a surface monitoring radar which would've warned them about a potential accident. 3. While the airport lighting was up to legal standards, the lighting at this time was a decisive factor, directly leading to the expectation bias that, since twy C was the only lit structure to the right of rwy 28L, twy C was actually 28R. There was also construction lighting on rwy 28L at this time which made it more difficult to distinguish from ramp lighting. The overall conclusion blamed the pilots - rightly so. But I would be careful to call out the pilots for this mistake. Since the incident, Star Alliance partners, including ACA, have retrofitted their aircraft with dual heads-up display configs, which, as a technical control, will make it easier for the pilots to enhance SA.
"To read back with your full callsign is mandatory for us." "Will do." lol
I'm under the assumption they have no idea what that meant. "Oh OK so we need to take note of something. Will do." I don't blame them, English is hard and 'mandatory' isn't a word you tend to learn in casual convo.
"Kuwaiti 117, we need you to say your callsign." "Will do." "Who said that? It certainly couldn't be Kuwaiti 117, since we just told them to say their callsign."
not really a command. so will do works there
That was Kennedy Steve, wasn't it?
U don't need to say the callsign if u have multiple transmission. Bad controller 😂 i think that Kuwaiti was busy flying.
@@altawashm recording purposes maybe ?
@@charliebravoromeo maybe 🤔 i work in Dubai and cant find any ATC records in uTube 😅 nobody want us.
Holy hell, I looked up the Air Canada 759 flight on Wikipedia and saw that it was only *14 feet* away from hitting a plane on the taxiway. Terrifying stuff, thank goodness the United Airlines 1 pilot noticed and spoke up.
yep, came close to being a second Tenerife
@@casualtie5331 Would be worse, because there were several planes 1.000 people were in harms way. Nearly double of Tenerife
When you mess up so bad that they remove your number from the system.... “Air Canada has stopped using flight number 759.”
@@68spc I think that happens with every airline when a crash happens or almost happens. Remember the Emirates 777 that took off in India and crashed in Dubai? I don't remember the exact flight number, but they stopped using it from that point onwards.
Bloody hell! 14' is the very definition of "way too fucking close for comfort".
I completely lost it when 956SP started reciting the weather info itself!! :D
For anyone else a tad confused at the end for what the dude over the radio meant by "special thanks to whoever cut the ATIS" - ATIS in aviation terms "is a continuous broadcast of recorded aeronautical information in busier terminal areas, i.e. airports and their immediate surroundings." So it seems the pilot was just thanking whoever recorded the message earlier for the laughs.
Thanks for mentioning this channel in your podcast - had quite some nerdy fun binging it :)
At the risk of sounding stupid. Huh? What was the crow for? What was the message?
@Fabled Creature He's referring to editing together the weather report with the bird warning and CA-CAW at the end. ATIS being the weather information (recording) the pilots tuned to before preparing for landing. Not a pilot but figured it out after listening to the rundown a couple times.
@@Thundersnowy they record a new ATIS every hour, and just for he made cacaw noise at the end, which certainly surprised the pilots and made them laugh
73Z with CA-CAW requesting the ILS
That Air Canada was a perfect storm. Unusual lights from construction. L closed. All beacon lights synced up with construction lights on Charlie perfectly in pattern.
But the ILS lights are a HUGE hint hey the runway is over here you dump canucs.
@@MichaelWatsonGod Man, your going to be shocked when you look into how many Americans kill Americans with planes in your own country.
Plus a flight had landed just previous to AC759, who was also confused by the state of the lighting. But its pilots had the right info to fall back on.
The best "I see it" story I've heard is the TWA incident at Craig (CAG) airport in 2001. The plane involved was either a DC-9 or MD-80 series, heading for Steamboat/Hayden (HDN), a small commercial airport up in the Colorado mountains by a ski area. The thing about this airport is that flights are on Denver control until they get down behind the front range (somewhere below 8000'). Back in that time, HDN was uncontrolled airspace. This crew was unfamiliar with the approach and it was snowing. They say that the ATC was giving instructions to the crew regarding the approach, when the pilot says "I see it" and kind of dives for the runway, breaking off contact as they go below 8000'. Well, he didn't see it. He saw a runway. Not the right runway. He saw the Craig airport, about 10 or 15 nm away from the correct airport. They somehow land the jet (with more than half a load of fuel + full load of pax) on a runway meant for crop dusters. The jet got stuck in the mud while trying to make a turnaround at the very end of the runway Hilarity ensues. Busses were dispatched from Steamboat to take the pax back to HDN. Locals showed up with tractors to pull the jet out of the mud. The jet sat on the runway for a day, burning off fuel. A maintenance crew had to come in from Denver to remove all the seats, carts, etc. A special crew came in to get the plane because Craig sits at 6180' and the runway is rather short. The jet made the short hop to Hayden, refueled, and flew to Denver to be reunited with its interior... Everyone survived, nothing was injured except some pride (and the runway) and the locals still joke about pilots who had to learn how to say "would you like fries with that" for their next jobs. Over the next few months, the small local airport trying to get repairs paid for by TWA, but TWA was already in bankruptcy. The incident has long since been purged from FAA database (no injuries/case closed) but the photo history is available for all to see at the Museum of Northwest Colorado in downtown Craig. So yes, he DID see a runway, just not the RIGHT runway!
I'm a student pilot with almost 10 hours of flying time. I can say from my little experience that communicating with ATC is probably more nerve-racking for me right now than practicing simulated engine failures. It's not as easy as people think, especially when you first start out.
It’ll get better. I promise. I don’t hear very well and I was nervous about that when I started flying. You start picking it up. And it becomes second nature. Just relax. Always remember you can have them repeat it and ask for slower. And always remember if you really don’t understand and/or can’t do it, you as the pilot can say “unable” and put the ball in their court to come up with something new. You should use that last one as a last resort only, but it is an option you shouldn’t be afraid to use if needed.
You will get there, the good thing is that you are aware of it and so you can work on it. Looking forward to fly with you one day! Good luck :-)
@@2Timothy42 thanks! Ive gotten a lot better and my Solo is tomorrow!
@@sarahgeorget89 Thank you! I've gotten a lot better and my solo is tomorrow!
I don’t think it would be easy at all. It’s a lot of information to comprehend within seconds but like anything, over time.. your brain will pick up on it and it will naturally slow down for you. At work, the first few weeks I couldn’t understand the radio AT ALL. (I work in a very loud automotive stamping plant. I didn’t know how people could tell what others were saying. After years of being there I can hear it and I can’t actually understand who’s saying it just by the tone of their voice.
The idea of people being more relaxed about rules and procedures on days with good weather certainly fits with a recent (brief, failed) flying experience I had: Skiing in Switzerland on a gorgeous day about a year ago, I went off a bump, got airborne, crashed and broke my shoulder. At the hospital, one of the nurses told me they always get the most patients on beautiful days like that.
plus the snow gets a bit sticky and slushy on sunny days.
I'm sure more people go skiing in better weather too.
Switzerland is heaven on earth.
As a controller, and having been in the tower at SFO, judging that distance between runway and taxiway there, especially at night, is next to impossible. But my god that would be a terrifying moment. Could have been horrendous.
some controllers have an ability to see if the planes aren't lined up on the localizer though right?
@@74gear I’m wondering the same, because that’s crazy if they don’t have any way to verify via radar or other means that the aircraft is indeed descending on the correct pathway. 😧
@@74gear I would think they have a dashed line out from each runway, so they probably would be able to see whether a plane on on the localizer or not. Maybe the controller was talking to another controller coordinating something, or was focused on something else.
I also heard that the left parallel runway was out of service at that time. Is that the case.
@@auroran0 That's what I understand also. And earlier than than the flight crew expected
Your story about not being able to spot the airport quickly bought me back. I failed a solo checkride once right after it snowed the previous night. The snow on the ground made everything look like another world to me. My instructor told me to fly back to our airport, but I was disoriented. I tried in vain to use the VORs to navigate, looking outside wasn't cutting it. He stopped me when I began to fly over a controlled airport and failed me.
Aw man...I live in California, specifically in the central valley. I'm lucky to not have to deal with snow in my region.
That sucks but glad you are still around. A friend's bf lost his life due to icing and weather is no joke. It's amazing how little mother nature has to do to eff up flight.
We had our C 141 diced at oiii, 3000 Sq ft of wing. The deicing fluid was bought bt the quart.
AC759 also missed the notam that said 28L was closed, they expected two strips of light and they got em and aimed for the right one.
@@toomanyuserids oh wow I did not know that
Just a personal note. Thank you for your channel. My uncle was a pilot, instructor and part owner of private transport business. He passed away last week, viewing was today and my heart was so heavy knowing I'll never fly with him again or hear his great flying stories. Got home to see you posted again and felt I had touched base with him one more time. Thank you! You never know when you are being a much needed reach out for someone else!!❤ He always said in this life you can choose to be a passenger or pilot...be a pilot! Keep flying on, Kelsey!
I'm so sorry for your loss.
"I'm not going to give you my call-sign because I'm busy running drugs."
I am guessing those guys actually use a call sign 😂
@@74gear It was then that they realised that "Mike Delta Mike Alpha" was a bad choice.
@@MrNikolidas or Charlie Kilo Kilo Kilo Kilo Kilo Kilo Kilo Kilo Kilo.
The Air Canada incident spurred many changes, including the elimination of visual landings at night at SFO. Interesting read and great video break down!
Didn't they modify a LOT of stuff for SFO because of this incident? One of them being the Quiet Bridge approach? The plane is off the ILS until 6 miles out. The runway being closed was on page 20 of the NOTAM list.
@@radbaron I blame ATC more so than the pilots. The Air Canada crew obviously did not know 28L was dark, as they expected to see two runways. I do not believe the pilots were notified that 28L would be dark -- a critical piece of information they should have had.
@@victor8x10 Confirmation bias caused by lack of reminders regarding 28L as well as fatigue due to a very long shift.
@@Vpmatt that is not what confirmation bias is
@@radbaron also when the runway is shut down it won't be completely dark. Some sort of red x lights will appear. The issue here is the left runway was shut down completely dark. So they mistakenly took the taxiway as the right runway.
The Air Canada incident reminded me of the Tenerefe disaster, where the pilot failed to hold at the end of the runway, while another plane was taxiing down the runway to park on one of the side taxiways.
I instantly thought of Tenerife when I saw the thumbnail. Very scary.
No, in Tenerife 2 747's where taxiing down the runway. one got to the end turned around and took off without clearance while the 2nd 747 was still taxiing on said runway. It's more like Western Airlines 2506.
I think the most realistic cause of tenerefe was that the 747 on the runway still taxiing was told to take the 3rd exit, but probably didnt see it and ended up taking the 4th exit from the start, then the 747 taking off didnt hold and took off without comfirming the runway was entirely clear.
@@footbread From the documentaries I've watched on Tenerife, there was confusion on which taxiway the Pan Am plane should have taken. The flight crew wasn't sure at first if the ATC was saying 'First' or 'Third', they knew that the angle of the third runway was impossible for an aircraft that big to maneuver, and as they were trying to figure it all out, the KLM started its takeoff.
@@dellahicks7231 or they didnt see the actual third exit
I can watch Kelsey all day. I learn so much, and laugh my buns off at certain videos. I fighting cancer and Kelsey takes my mind off of the pain better than anything the Dr gives me. Thanks again Kelsey for making my day a little brighter. Bill Feilhauer.
I hope your treatment goes well and you can survive it.....been there with my sister and dad....
Hey Kelsey, here's a story that will have your eyes meet your nose !! When I was about 20years old, (1974 ish) I started taking lessons, GA. On about my third or fourth lesson I was to do radio circuits and bumps, this was when I had accumulated about four and a quarter hours. If you care to check it out, it was at Wellington New Zealand. ( unfortunately no video as that was rather rare in those days ) Here's what happened. After about thirty-five minutes of touch 'n' goes, talking to ATC etc, my instructor, an elderly gent named Bill said something to me at the same time I was listening to ATC saying something about an incoming commercial I touched down, rolled a hundred meters and powered up, 200 AGL, flaps up, scan horizon, check instruments, continue climb to 1000 AGL. Bill, (the instructor) just says "its Ok, I'm sure you will handle it!" Bl**dy Hell!! what's he on about ? a quick horizon scan, particularly towards Newlands area ( well used commercial flight path ) then searched the instruments for something, anything out the expected, NOTHING! what the hells he on about. By this time I was looking to my left, up the Hutt Valley / Petone area (cross wind) sun gleaming on the wing, Ahh picture perfect!, time to turn from 090 at 1000AGL to 180deg, straightened up, and guess what I saw?, yupp, a heavy thick cloud, from about sea level to say 9~10,000 FT, but hey, its at least 10 to 15Km away. A couple of minutes later the temperature in the cockpit dropped by about 10 degrees C. then........ Womph! nothing, absolutely nothing! could I see nothing but dark grey to the right, to the left, straight ahead, down below absolutely NOTHING!! (Erm isn't that called IMC ?) Meantime, Bill the ol' bugger was just sitting there, saying absolutely nothing, arms folded, staring into space, one foot on the dash. Now, what WAS the last thing I actually saw, oh yeah, the prison. From then on it was only one thing that kept me going, and that was the thought that this ol' bugger wasn't going to let some young stupid student kill him!! So, from here it was three instruments. Altimeter, artificial horizon and my watch. I was so overloaded with thoughts, that I didn't even think of talking to ATC. All that was on my mind, wind change, temperature, time, distance, and so I continued, waiting, just waiting, praying for the inevitable words "MY PLANE!" it never came, nothing! onto final I turn, height 400AGL, check, carb heat ON, flaps SET, GEAR (fixed) down. Still can't see a bl**dy thing, so I grabbed the radio.... " Charlee November Quebec to Air traffic control, could you please light up some candles, I can't see a thing!" Their reply? CNQ , ATC runway lights on, vasey lights and strobes ON!" Oh crap! I can't see anything, I'm now at 200AGL 75Kn IAS, look! I thought, I see the sea breaking on the shore. 150AGL, Woohoo! I see the strobes, I can I really can, and they're dead ahead! I don't believe it! The touch down, smooth but noisy! and the speed, oh hell the speed, I don't think I'd ever travelled on the ground so fast. Missed the usual taxiway, and the next, then the third, at last!, slow enough to turn onto the fourth taxi way, slammed the stick hard over to the left and taxied back to the clubrooms. Engine shut down...... rain beating on the canopy, the quiet whir of the gyro winding down, Bill finally speaks.... " next time you'll listen to what I say!" Um, I replied, er I was kinda listening to ATC, to which he replied.... " to HELL with ATC! they're not sitting in the plane with you, are they?" Oh, and by the way, not a bad landing. I arrived at the clubroom toilets, soaked in rain, sweat & piss! Just as an after thought, I had just logged 4 hours and 55minutes. Next week, said Bill, we'll do a bit of cross country, Ok? So we did, we flew to Paraparaumu, landed, Said he had to stretch his legs , oh, and by the way he said, this is your solo, now get on with it, and by the way, if you think you're not going to touch down before halfway, GO AROUND! Ok? That was the only warning / preparation I got for my solo flight, Logging 5hours and ten minutes just missing out on a scholarship FREE training to 50 hours, by just eight bl**dy minutes!!! That great little "Victa115" Kiwi built plane. Oh those were the days. now I'm just plain crazy! I always remember a couple out of "the book", even now, like, " there are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but no old bold pilots" and "aerobatics started near the ground end up six feet under the ground" I believe that those were two of the "ten commandments" for wannabe pilots. Kelsey, I hope this may be of interest, it is, after all, 100% true, except maybe the planes rego, my memory of that bit is lacking. The rest I shall NEVER forget. Just thinking about it makes me wanna go to the loo !! Regards, and respects to all you fly boys!!
Maybe Kelsey didn't read this, but those of us who did stumble upon your comment I assure you, they'd all be pretty amazed. You've got a good instructor, funny enough, putting you on the spot on bad conditions and you managing to deal with them well overall.
The pilot reading back the frequency change and wishing the controller luck didn't use his own callsign...
It would be a lot FUNNIER if he used it...
didnt he initially say "United 1"?
He wasn't reading back information.
@@alexanderfiebrandt6732 I hope not. His callsign was Flight 2521.
@@comradeJon629 He was reading back an instruction to change frequency. ATC needs to know who is on what frequency, so frequency changes should get a proper read back.
The Air Canada incident was the first time the NTSB treated it with the same level of report as an actual collision when there had not been one. "Fun" detail: the Captain had not rested in 19 hrs, the FO had not rested in 12hrs, and their body clock was 3AM. Had they been based in the US, the Captain would not have been fit to fly. Canadian NTSB has been criticized a lot over the last decade about outdated fatigue rules with both air and train disasters having fatigue as a contributing factor
I thought they sounded a bit tired, probably because they were.
Really enjoyed this one. I got my private license just prior to 9/11. In a rural area of California, both of the instructors at my airport warned me about the FAA examiner who had to fly in from a local airport to meet me. He was brutal. An hour of chart work and airplane inspection basics, and it was time to fly. He did have the foresight to tell me beforehand that, if for any reason I felt uncomfortable, I could tell him so and we would stop the check ride. Well, after 30 minutes in the air and numerous intimidating questions and comments, I told him I was uncomfortable and was ending the check ride. He was floored. He couldn't believe it. A month later we met again, he was very contrite, and he gave me my ticket. My CFI back home couldn't believe I'd done it, but loved every bit of the Schadenfreude.
ATC: "It looks like you were lined up on Charlie...just wanna say I loved you in Indiana Jones"
As a kid when flying with my dad, my job was to let my dad know when I see the runway, especially in IMC. One of the hardest runways for me to spot was El Monte, Ca. It's just a sea of pavement everywhere and that damn runway just blends in. I hated El Monte.
Look for the water tower.... it’s the only way to find that airport from the south.
And I quote: " Ca- Cawwwwwww"... 🍻🍻😂😂 That's gunna be my call sign...lol
Charlie alpha charlie alpha whiskey whiskey whiskey whiskey whiskey whiskey whiskey
@@Pile_of_carbon 😂😂.... 🍻🍻
@@raysplace6548 Remember to read it back at all times.
I read a bit about this one and it would seem it wasn't entirely the mistake of the pilots. They were supposed to land on right, but the lights on the left were turned off, thus making R seemingly the L and Charlie the R, thanks to some vehicles as well as taxiing planes. The investigation concluded that the mistake was likely; the previous plane landing also thought Charlie was a runway.
Having said that, they also weren't using the ILS (which was allowed at the time), were extremely fatigued, and had missed the NOTAM about the closure of 28L.
I probably saw much the same. On another youtube channel, they included the actual vid from the tower cam. One of the planes on the taxiway turned on their landing lights to illuminate the plane in front of them. AC saw that and initiated go around . It wasn't anyone telling them they were lined up wrong, it was suddenly seeing an airplane illuminate RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. And the vid shows they missed the planes on the taxiway by about 15 feet. Peace to you. Oh, and, non-pilot here if I said the wrong terms here.
It's interesting, I'm not a pilot, but a police officer and I find your videos fascinating because so much of what you talk about with the dynamics between communications between ATC and pilots is the same as we have between police and dispatch. We've definitely had issues where AFTER a call is finished dispatch asks us to call us (or we call them) so we can resolve an issue we were having or discuss how we would have preferred communication go. Having dispatch try to resolve issues like that while we're in the middle of a situation is obviously not ideal, however afterwards most of us are all game to talk it through. Just like you guys and ATC, with police and dispatch we're all looking for the same end game...Everyone getting home safe.
The moment Air Canada began talking, I immediately realised that the pilot sounded exhausted 😭😭😥
One pilot had been on duty for 12 hours, the other for 19! The flight originated out of Toronto, and their "internal clocks" would have been at 3am for them.
@@radbaron Having worked the night shift there are instances where the brain just like goes into limp mode and "says" ....... whatever....... anything seems right.
From the bottom of my heart, thank you to every ATC and flight crew member who does not let safety slide for the sake of making their lives a little easier. It may piss people off, but it's better to get where you're going safely. The simple fact is that you will never know when you prevented an accident.. because it didn't happen! But when it does happen, lives are changed forever. Accidents are never for 1 sole reason, they are a chain of events that lead to a perfect storm, and every lazy decision adds to the chain that can lead to disaster. Hats off to the diligent folks in the industry. To those that aren't... find a different profession or hobby.
The pilot who came in and said “where’s this guy going” really saved their necks, if no one was watching things could have gotten much worse
Also the second plane in line that blasted his landing lights.
@@fcgHenden Indeed. Mentour Pilot made a very informative video about it.
he saved more people than Sully requiring less skill. that's efficiency. all passengers should learn the name of that pilot to send over gift boxes!!! i know i would.
"Air Canada 759, you are on the taxi way" "Yeah, we noticed, *coming up* !"
Or, yeah, we noticed, "going" up. And just in time! I don't want any accident to happen. But I am very happy this one didn't.
If I remember rightly, a contributing factor for the Air Canada incident was the presence of construction lights which the NTSB investigation found could be mistaken for ramp lighting.
Ahead of them, Delta Airlines flight 521 was coming in to land on the same runway using the same approach. Its pilots faced a confusing sight: they thought they had lined up with runway 28R, but they appeared to be lined up with runway 28L instead. The source of the confusion was simple: with runway 28L unlit except for the white X, runway 28R and taxiway C looked like runway 28L and runway 28R respectively. Pilots flying into SFO were used to seeing two parallel runways, and under these circumstances the parallel runway and taxiway gave off the illusion of being the expected parallel runways. The crew of flight 521 checked their navigation equipment, confirmed they were lined up with the correct runway, and proceeded to land without incident. Meanwhile, the pilots of Air Canada flight 759 were about to be hit with the same illusion - but without the benefit of their navigational aids. And the captain had been awake for 19 straight hours.
The key for the Air Canada go around was a Philippines airlines a340 behind United 1 that flashed their landing lights to signal that Air Canada was coming at them and this is what actually caused the Air Canada to initiate the go around.
Thats scary
Really, a key should have been that they lined up on a "runway" with pretty blue lights. No matter how you look at it, the whole thing makes me shudder.
@@Sitflyer2000 that's exactly what he's saying hence "runway"
I thought I head that the Left runway was closed and lights off, not sure if the lights were off on the parallel taxiway adjacent to the closed runway only leaving what could have looked like 2 runways ahead. Also as a controller if someone questions me about a clearance I give (is there anyone on the runway) thats a clue to me that something might not be going as planed and I need to double check whats going on. We all need to have each others back and help each other out.
@@Sitflyer2000 I am a professional pilot with 34 years experience. Believe me, I know what color the runway lights are. lol. I think you could use a brush up on your reading comprehension though.
It just occured to me that one of the important reasons to say your callsign, even when it's clear from your voice who's talking, could be that if the transcript is printed out, it will be clear who's talking.
If you turned up in my house saying "I'm in your house", you'd be welcomed with a pizza and a beer 😂
I'm not a pilot but, my friend in college was. He asked if I want to fly with him. The plan was to rent a plane in DeKalb, IL, where we were going to school (NIU class of 78) and fly up to Aurora and do a couple of touch and goes and come back. While renting the plane, the guy told us that Aurora has training some ATC and wanted anybody to request approach surveillance. As soon as we started toward Aurora, he called and request. We got vectored way out and around, no big deal. Then ATC started calling us, you have traffic at 1:00 10 miles W bound. Seconds later, traffic is now N bound. Then 9 miles S bound. We can't even see it. This keeps going on and on. We finally get close enough to see this plane. This guy is practicing aerobatics. Every time he changed direction, we got a call. We told ATC we have visual and what was going on and didn't need any more report. We did our touch and go and went home.
Former DeKalb resident and my mother received her Masters’ at NIU.
The NTSB report on the Air Canada 759 incident is *really* fascinating. Though there is definitely some fault with the pilots, there were a lot of contributing factors. For example, 28L was unavailable (for maintenance) , and its lights were out, so when the pilots saw two illuminated strips of ground, it was easy to mistake the taxiway for 28R, if you were expecting 28L to be present and lit. Should the pilots have known 28L was down and unlit? Ideally yes, and they'd have seen that in their pre-flight info packet. However, their pre-flight packet was 27 pages long, including several pages of NOTAMs, and the runway closure information wasn't even on the front page of the NOTAM list -- and a lot of the NOTAMs are just not particularly useful (there's *120* of them *right now*!), so it's easy for one to get lost in the noise. So, ultimately, yes, human error was definitely part of the issue, but as with every aviation (near-)accident, there's definitely more to the story.
There used to be a reason to say "with you" - ATC/Center would be receiving with several receiver stations around the area, particularly in areas blocked by mountains, and those stations would all be on DIFFERENT FREQUENCIES from the main local frequency. The controller would hear your call no matter what radio station your call had been received by, but they did not have any way of knowing WHICH FREQUENCY you'd called in on, however, they had to choose which radio site to transmit a reply from. Your telling them which frequency you're on tells them which radio site to use to call you back.
They use that term a lot in Canada, at least from my experience.
I think the call sign guy had absolutely no idea what the controller was asking. The controller asked him to verify he had the Gillespie weather with his call sign. He was telling the controller the weather at Gillespie. This guy speaks aviation English as a 3rd or 4th language. I have conducted many practical tests on applicants that spoke Aviation English. The new responses to ATC from rote memory. If any controller asked something outside the routine, they are stumped and don’t know what is being asked. Many times they simply respond, “Yes.” When I had to key my microphone to answer ATC, the Check Ride was over. He, very clearly, sounded like one of those pilots. I cannot imagine how difficult it is for them. When applicants failed for English language problems, most of the debriefings were with the Recommending CFI.
I love this guy's pilot vs arc videos
thanks Dileep, glad to hear it
@@74gear never thaught that u will reply
@@DileepKumar-zx4iq What is more, replied like a pilot. Short, sweet and to the point.
@@nunyabidness674okay? So did u reply like a pesent?
@@nunyabidness674 ... but without stating his callsign at the end 😜
1:36 dude is the epitome of calm. i would of at least had some annoyance or sarcasm in my voice. somethin. couldn't imagine being a foriegn pilot in jfk or o'hare, lax and the atc just rapid firing english at you. i mean it's not just english, it's American english, my native language and it's hard for me.
But english is also the international standard for air traffic. So he uses it as home also.
@@JCrook1028 Not necessarily. Most non english speaking countries allow local language to be used. Especially in general aviation. And even for commercial aviation in spanish speaking countries, russia, china or france you will not hear all pilots speak english. It's not very good for situational awareness but it is how it is.
@@JCrook1028 Hahaha. If only.
@@roichir7699 That's true, but flying from Kuwait to JFK, you're going to be speaking a lot of English before you get anywhere close to JFK. They're not going to accept Arabic over Europe, for example. Even in the Middle East, though, they're likely speaking English on the radio the whole time. It's also worth noting that, unlike in China, Russia, and many Spanish-speaking countries, there's pretty much no such thing as a domestic flight in Kuwait and definitely no such thing as a domestic scheduled airline flight. It's not like it's a case where someone mostly flies domestically, but just occasionally internationally. Likely every single flight they've ever flown since starting at the airline has been international with probably a strong majority being long-haul or at least medium-haul.
@@roichir7699 In Poland for example, pilots just say something like this: SP-LV cleared for takeoff runway 33. -Cleared for takeoff runway 33, SP-LV. Dowidzenia. (Dowidzenia means bye).
I went through a binge of watching air disaster, crash & near miss videos and there were multiple situations where an issue was caused by the wrong pilot replying to air traffic control & air traffic control not realising. Really gives you an appreciation for why they need to be anal about pilots using callsigns!!
I've always been fascinated with planes. Something we all take for granted. I have no aspirations to become a pilot but greatly admire the profession. Thank you for the awesome content. Fly safe!
Even though English is not my first language I consider myself pretty proficient with it. I can't understand 95% of the communication due to the buzzing and distortion and without captions i would have no idea what they're saying.
I have always wondered how the heck the pilots and ATC personel can understand eachother. It's not like they're makaing an effort to speak clearly either. Always talk super fast and almost mumbeling ontop of all the distortion
I am a native English speaker and I can't figure out most of what they say. I completely agree that they speak fast and mumbly, and then the low-bandwidth VHF radio mangles the heck out of it. I honestly have wondered how pilots (and police, etc) can understand anything that comes through their radios.
As Kelsey always states: Phraseology. With proper usage, there is a very limited number of calls that you can expect. Mostly, you already know its gonna be one of these x things. Also I found the audio to be better on board, but that might be also have been by chance
I don’t have great hearing and have a hard time understanding people with out seeing their lips. I was worried about this before I started flying, but you really pick it up over time. Also, it usually isn’t as staticky as you hear on these recordings. Keep in mind these recordings are usually from ground based receivers which, while it works, is not exactly what the system is optimized for. Plus you have volume control on your headset and usually some form of noise cancellation as well. M
It sounds much more clear in the plane. These ATC recordings are usually from ground stations and heavily compressed
A little ironic that the other pilot saying "Thirty-four nothing, good luck" also did not state his call sign.
You don't put your callsign on smirks.
You don't shitpost using your full name, do you?
@@fluffigverbimmelt I have never heard 'shitpost' and don't know what it means. He was acknowledging instruction to switch to another frequency and reading back that frequency.
Honestly, I can sympathize with the ATC being super strict about protocol and communication. This kind of mentality is also common on the ranches I worked at, because there is a stupidly high number of things that can go disastrously wrong. Whether it's airplanes or thoroughbreds, you only need to screw up once for somebody to die.
This is also really important for navigation. "Officer of the X, do thing 1A" "do thing 1A, Aye, sir; Chief of the Y, Conn: Do things 1A-1 and 1A-2" "Do things 1A-1 and 1A-2, chief of the Y aye sir."
I'd love to hear more about the Pegasus you were flying around on!
ATC vs. Pilots is my fav of all the series! More please!
You rock dude! Love this. I wish I still had some of my tapes from my days in ATC. Dealing with military, civilian and commercial was never a dull moment.
Love this format, so much insights for me as an amateur aviation nerd.
I really like these ATC vs pilots videos. They involve a lot of stuff about aviation we civilians don't really know anything about, and can be really funny and enternaining, or in some cases serious when something goes wrong. I remember recommeding Kelcey a video about a real pilot trolling as ATC in flight simulator X which was hilarious, it's nice to see he used some of the ideas there :D
Much respect to you sir for your bravery and guts to flying them planes and continuing being a hero for all those travelers. I always have a fear of flying, so I have a habit of thanking the pilots for their professionalism. Keep up the good work and be safe as always
Just what I wanted to start my day!
I am not always ready to engage in your videos, because I am not a pilot. I wish to be. When I can enjoy your videos I absolutely love it. I love watching when I have time to understand your breakdown. I appreciate your work!
I watched several of your videos and this one dragged an old memory out. Years ago I messed with flight sim software but prior to that I had a ATC game. It always started out easy but over time the difficulty inceased. It basically taught me that just like flying air traffic control is no joke. Get one aircraft lined up for landing and at some point it passes from your control. The more aircraft coming into airspace some from headings that would if not put into a pattern would fly right over the tower. Being a pilot or air traffic controller is alot of responsibility but I imagine the controllers have alot more stress as they are responsible for more than one aircraft and airports for large meto areas it probably multiplys expotentially when they are working to keep hundreds of people safe.
lol Love the "with you" splainer~ Well done, Kelsey!
Nice one on that ATC controller for the Kuwaiti 117
Sunday is always a little treat day - new video from Kelsey :) You definitely have a talent for teaching Kelsey, you explain things very well and in a very simple way. You should train new pilots, you would be an amazing teacher.
I've just discovered Kelsey and his 74 Gear, very interesting info! As a GA pilot, I'm always wondering certain things about the airline group of pilots, and this has been extremely informative! Thanks, Kelsey, for sharing these stories with us!
I love the way you tell your own stories. You are the best!
I swear when the pilot started reading the weather out like the ATC didnt know it, i SWEAR i heard the ATC's head hit the desk
Hey Kelsey, just discovered your videos and I'm a big fan! I'm nothing like a pilot, Im' a graphic designer from France (other ways to taking off and landing even if we use the same vector systems...). I like very much the way you educate people while being very generous of your time and wisdom, and you're funny! Thanks a lot for your educational and entertaining content, I love watching your reaction on videos that people sent you, and your face's expressions are priceless! Keep on doing such good stuff. Farewell from France!
I’ve been struggling with deciding whether or not to try and get into aviation to become an airline pilot and you’re videos have really helped me believe I can do it. The way you explain everything makes it seem less daunting and more doable.
Have you made the jump yet?
@74Gear I used to dispatch limousines, and we experienced almost exactly the same phenomenon. On super busy days, everyone was in the zone and we got everything done. On slower days with a smaller number of trips, the owner might give us additional tasks to complete, and that's when we started missing trips.
I saw a funny meme on the "With you" check in where ATC should reply, "and also with you."
Love your videos! THANK YOU for taking the time to make them!!
Happy you're enjoying them Davis
Years ago I went to school for airframe and power plant. I’m currently studying for my Part 107. While I’m not going to be an actual pilot I find you information invaluable. Had to subscribe. Keep it coming!
I am not a pilot, nor work anywhere in the air industry, but your comment about folks relaxing when the weather is good reminded me of when I first was riding motorcycles back in the 70s (still ride daily as I am only 70). After about two years of riding safely I would start getting a bit complacent in nice weather and - believe it or not - that was when I had my only two minor traffic accidents. Easily preventable if I had been paying attention, but I now consider fair weather as DANGEROUS because folks tend to back off their vigilance. I learned my lesson (without any injuries!) and never again took nice days for granted, but I do seem to see people driving worse, the better the weather. I also took additional driving training over the subsequent years and learned a lot more about how to handle the machine and traffic. Continuous training exercises are critical to survival as you so rightly recommend - hence your great channel! Thanks!
I like the ATC episodes. I had wanted to be an ATC at OHare in the early 1970s but it was considered ‘too stressful” a job for women.
Ha Ha Ha. Yeah, when I was in high school I wanted to take Shop, Home Ec, 2 semesters (sewing + cooking) required for girls, shop not allowed. Also wanted to take 4 years of math, "girls don't need it", (Both rules were changed while I was in college.) Do you know almost all high paying jobs require 4 years of high school math plus college math? No wonder women of my generation had average lower incomes. I'm 68 now. Always wondered about e=mc2. Going to start taking math classes at my community college and maybe online, goal is to work through Einstein's proof. (My friends think I'm a little crazy.) Sorry for the rant.
Back in the day, rappers liked to announce when they were in the house.
Aaron america with you, in da house.
This channel is legit. Great aviation option. Great content, Kelsey. Keep it coming mang.
I am 100% serious when I tell you that this is by far/bar none the most interesting channel on YT...I have learned so much here and I am not even into aviation, but I am becoming a big fan of it
I've done lots of flying at Gillespie and Montgomery. It's always a hoot listening to foreign student pilots breaking themselves in on radios.
Cross out student and still applies (i.e. Air China 981) 😉🤣
@@mshighaltitude They acted like that on purpose to get to their parking faster. Air China is China’s most prestigious state owned airline there is no way they are bad at English.
@@AaronShenghao Saying there’s no way Air China pilots are bad at English is a pretty bold statement.
@@mshighaltitude Truth.
@@AaronShenghao sure? Wasn't that "expedite, expedite" clip by Air China too? That clearly was shitty English. And generally, I wouldn't base "the amazing prestige™ of AirChina" on their great command of English. That's just unlikel to be true for all pilots, seriously.
ATC to Kelsey’s 747: Takeoff cleared Kelsey: Coming up!
That "ca-caw" comm was an amazing bit of flair. Brought some levity into the job *_and_* kept the caution clear and present in the minds of the pilots.
Great explanation on the use of the callsign. As an ATC, there's times the use isn't critical and we can "let it slide" and other times we absolutely cannot. Our ears get tuned to the absolutes and when we catch them we'll often say something along the lines of, "callsign, for technical reasons can you restate that with your callsign" and usually the pilot understands why and complies. Pilots do the same for us when they feel we said their callsign wrong and nobody has answered for a few seconds. They'll ask, "did you mean (callsign)". They don't want to assume we meant them and take the clearance because there may very well be an aircraft with the callsign the controller said on their frequency.
The only time I've been a passenger when they did a go around, was in daytime in pretty good weather, maybe slightly windy and turbulent, but clear enough. Though I'm pretty sure it was the pilots themselves who realized they weren't stabilized. It felt like they descended very fast and kept adjusting the heading before they suddenly accelerated. I think we had had a tailwind and were given a surprisingly early slot to land or something, since it seemed like they were hurrying to get down, so I was glad when I sensed they started a go around, because the first approach didn't really feel stabilized.
Just reading about it appears runway 28L was closed, was part of the confusion. Great videos!
I have to "come clean" as an airline pilot (now retired). I was *SO* pumped with myself because I was a Captain (MD-80) operating IAH-SAT. MY leg as Pilot Flying. A severe clear night. Told ATC had "airport in sight"....but? WRONG airport!!! How embarrassing. A few maneuvers....and landed at the CORRECT airport. Still? A lesson learned......
Kelsey, Thank you for the comment about with you. I just finished the crew portion of my training and every time I spoke to someone new I said with you... man I feel so dumb time to break the habit. Thank you!
Well... for the Air Canada incident, there were some portion of approach lighting system at night in SF can be taken accountable. From NTSB report, there were a few planes on txwy C waiting for departure for the runway and their strobe lights were miraculously flashing in the order just like approach light. And also parallel rwy lights were dead for maintenance reason so another great chance for the Air Canada pilot to think that the approach light on the left side in his vision is 28L and flashing strobes from C is approach lights for 28R. These facts were also reinforced by the pilots landed before the Air Canada made a voice of concern that they were confusing on their approach. Of course he should’ve noticed the rwy light NOTAM, position of PAPI and the colour of lightings.
Yeah love this series! Happy Easter 😉
thanks Diana, Happy Easter
Dude, I love your sense of humor! Thanks.
Great video as always. I had that in my test question. There are likely to be more pilot errors on a clear day since everyone is relaxed and it leads to hypo vigilance
“the next words out of your mouth is either guilty or not guilty....” the Honorable Chamberlain Haller
@pigybak... The best movie 🎥🍿
Having ridden in the jump seat at night a few times, I have total sympathy for any pilot that can’t see the runway or lines up on a taxiway. It’s way harder than I ever would have imagined. Vegas was a nightmare with lights everywhere. With most airports having a brightly lit city all around its actually the darkest spot where the runway is.
That last one really cracked me up:) lol they got their message about birds and that one definitely stick with them ha ha
I love this channel. Great find.
Some of this reminds me of when I was a kid and my dad was serving in the Middle East. He called my mom and because of the phone system at that time (probably from a ship), she had to say "STOP" after she was done talking. Sort of like having to say "over" after speaking on a radio.
This is also how you use TTY for the hard of hearing or a "go ahead" so the interpreter knows they can type.
Your videos have become part of my Sunday morning routine. Happy Easter, Kelsey!
I enjoy these ATC v. Pilots videos.
I'm not a pilot, yet I enjoy your videos. I have learned a lot about being a pilot, and it must be stressful at times.